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Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

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Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#231

Post by keymone »

chrispeel wrote: post #2

Proof-of-Stake is indeed a good thing, and a worthy focus of the article. From the article we read " the long-term hope is that apps built from them will eventually make Ethereum the ultimate cloud-computing platform. " Ethereum does not claim to be a computing platform in the same way that AWS is; it's for low-complexity business logic only. I think it's misleading to use "ultimate cloud-computing platform" to descr…

PoS was known way before PoW. It simply doesn't solve the problem at hand - decentralized consensus between mutually distrusting parties.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#232

Post by keymone »

lrvick wrote: post #21

Could also be 100% if their Proof-Of-Stake game theory does not work as well with real funds worth stealing as it does on testnet. Full disclosure I hold some ETH but I would not dare put all my eggs in that brazenly "do it live" basket. One party can hold >50% of all funds and we would have no way of knowing. I wish people would look at less energy consuming proofs of work that still allow us real world evidence of…

one party already holds >50%, don't forget that Ethereum is a pre-mine scam.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#233

Post by jki275 »

anthonybsd wrote: post #6
RealityVoid wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, and exactly these kind of experiments are what crypto cryptocurrencies should be about.

That's not true. Pure, non hybrid PoS has never been deployed on any crypto at scale. The fact that Ethereum is on their 3rd iteration and still can't figure out how to make it work years after promised delivery should be alarming at least.

XTZ, RDD, there are numerous other POS coins.

The ETH network doesn't want to make it work.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#234

Post by keymone »

DennisP wrote: post #224
zby wrote: post #177

I don't care much if the waste is in energy or hardware or in any other resource. And the level of waste depends only on the block reward and the price of ETH, not the algorithm used, because as long as it is profitable people will burn resources to get the rewards. In free competition people will do that until it gets unprofitable and it gets unprofitable when they burn as much value as they get from the reward. Thi…

Yes but the waste in PoS is just the opportunity cost of locking up capital, not anything physical. Your first link argues that the cost is still physical because of stake grinding, but there are solutions to stake grinding.

> opportunity cost of locking up capital

that's one part and it is also paid by PoW miners by buying the hardware.

then there is another part - block rewards. where's MC=MR int hat for PoS?

> solutions to stake grinding

only ones that involve trusted third parties.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#235

Post by keymone »

koliber wrote: post #175

Coin miners use lots of electricity and release a lot of heat. Electrical heaters use lots of electricity and release a lot of heat. Would it be viable to start a company that sends attractive-looking coin miners to people who heat with electricity? Have the coin miner subsidize 25% of the electricity consumption as the icing on the cake. Would the numbers work on that? Heating is mostly used in the winter. However,…

flipping a bit takes energy. if you flip a bit and also release heat - your bit-flipping hardware is inefficient.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#236

Post by jki275 »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #134
samatman wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is special pleading; there is no stock, no matter how blue chip, for which the market cap reflects the price at which all 'hodlers' could simultaneously sell their position. That's just... not how markets work, at all.

The idea of everyone with a stock exiting simultaneously is way too suspicious and hard to mentally model, so let's say a supermajority instead, because some event makes a big holder and some followers want to move out. Perhaps the stock was replaced in an index fund. And you made up "simultaneously", so I'm going to ignore that and say "a week or two" instead. There are thousands of major stocks that could support t…

Can you cite any stock that could actually support a super majority of owners dumping their stock on the market? I don't have any data on this, but it doesn't seem logical that could happen.

Generally large amounts of stock hitting the market at once results in price depression.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#238

Post by tialaramex »

leppr wrote: post #153
marknadal wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are spot on, until... The Goldilocks Zone. Or shall we call it The Goldiblocks Zone? Most projects will be by successful leaders and enthusiasts, until one of these experiments will hit the perfect combination of factors, and gain world traction. Think of the crypto industry as AI training, most is pure junk, until a regression is fit. Grandparent had a good point: TCP/IP were the right approach, and the internet…

> Ethereum makes the mistake in assuming every site needs to operate like a bank, but people hardly use banking websites compared to YouTube or Reddit. Strawman. There is a time and place for strong security guarantees, nobody said social networks and media hosting should be done on the same network you use to transact money with. Maybe you'd be interested in EOS, Stellar and other transparent blockchain platforms? T…

> nobody said social networks and media hosting should be done on the same network you use to transact money with

It's a strong consequence of the 0,1,N rule. The correct number of networks is clearly not "zero", and Metcalfe's Law ensures N networks are worse than N-1 networks with the same nodes in, so you get one network at the limit.

Once upon a time I'd have called it "the Internet" but that's really redundant at this point, just call it "the Network" and have done with it. One network, for everything, for everyone, for ever.

This isn't even a new idea, the Bell company couldn't build a single telephone network across the continental US until a better electrical repeater technology existed (today we barely even think of this problem because the transistor is so ubiquitous its original purpose becomes invisible) but they insisted it was a single network anyway, because that's very obviously what you actually want even if you still haven't invented the technology to do it.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#239

Post by justtopost »

opnitro wrote: post #78
zanny wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can Ethereum be decentralized if they can so easily keep changing it? The development of crypto has really demonstrated an institutional inertia to moving away from the blessed official implementation. Tons of BTC forks were tried and failed, and almost all coins die when development stops than see their clients forked. A lot of it, I imagine, has to do with... trust . That magical thing crypto users keep tryin…

https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm This paper is ever important when trying to come up with technical solutions to societal organization.

Strange how things have changed and yet stayed the same. From the universalities of power struggle, to problems like 'printing press belongs to husband' depriving the 'movement'.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#240

Post by justtopost »

menzoic wrote: post #211
TekMol wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say the same about a government backed currency. "Sure, the government can send men with guns. But that's because they have the backing of the people. The police and the military. If they lose that, they can't."

TekMol, I don't get how your analogy relates? A gun would have to be put to every individual miner's head to force the majority to upgrade. Even then, if it caused a fork, individual users have the freedom to continue using the old version, new miners can choose the old version. Miners can even switch back to the old version after the gun is gone. Everything will still work.

The gun here I wager is metaphorical, the loss of value by 'force' is the point.

If your currency forks, and you are now in the minority, chances are your values will fall, and become harder to make liquid, as the market shrinks.

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