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Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

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Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#201

Post by rsynnott »

amasad wrote: post #41

> To make their intentions clear, Ethereum’s core developers reprogrammed their PoW code to create an exponential rise in mining difficulty. Known as the “Difficulty Bomb,” it began slowing the creation of new transaction blocks in late 2016 and was expected to bring ether mining to a grinding halt a few years thereafter. > This time bomb has, however, functioned more like an alarm clock with a snooze button. In Octo…

As you'd probably expect, the answer is that it isn't meaningfully decentralised. Nor is bitcoin, by the way.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#202

Post by rsynnott »

wpietri wrote: post #95
Iv wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And many crypto-anarchists discovered that day that most people did not care about decentralization.

But if decentralization doesn't matter, then what's the point of these technologies? One can build these things much, much more efficiently if centralization is fine. Financial exchanges have been doing that for years. E.g., if you look at the LMAX approach, they can hit TPS rates something like 1,000,000 times faster than common blockchains: https://martinfowler.com/articles/lmax.html

> But if decentralization doesn't matter, then what's the point of these technologies?

Well, yes, that's the question, isn't it?

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#203

Post by josu »

wslh wrote: post #192
amasad wrote: post #17

Some good criticism of PoS in @TuurDemeester's thread from last week: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1078682801954799617.html And HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18780489

Nothing in Tuur Demeester resume [1] makes me think he is able to discuss PoS which is being developed by top scientists (including one Turing Prize) in projects like Cardano, DFINITY, Algorand, and Ethereum. [1] https://www.linkedin.com/in/tuurdemeester/

PoS is not only a computing and cryptography problem, it's also a social science and game theory problem. There are not that many "scientists" that are knowledgeable on those areas. Nick Szabo (the authority figure you may be looking for) doesn't seem to like PoS:

>Conjectured governance under proof-of-stake seems to involve programmers & other amateurs making legal & accounting decisions. Bitcoin governance does not. Even when lawyers & accountants properly take over PoS governance, PoW governance will likely be far more socially scalable.

https://twitter.com/nickszabo4/status/956461360161935361

Tuur is a pretty insightful guy, and even if he doesn't have the credentials, the critique stands on its own.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#204

Post by josu »

wmf wrote: post #32
anthonybsd wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tezos uses delegated PoS, so no, I don't think it qualifies. D-PoS is sort of antithetical to the idea of decentralized blockchain due to a small number of nodes and very questionable process of node (witness) selection.

Won't any pure PoS system naturally evolve stake pooling that looks like DPoS?

Unless they somehow integrate PoS in the wallets, yes.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#205

Post by Nursie »

jerguismi wrote: post #199
Nursie wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people, most use cases, don't want irreversibility. Reversible transactions are a huge positive.

Well I guess when you are receiving you want irreversibility, when you are sending you prefer reversibility...

> Well I guess when you are receiving you want irreversibility

I think that's a little simplistic.

Without reversibility you're not going to receive as much. People are far less likely to trust smaller or newer merchants without these sorts of features.

You probably also want your customers to be able to rectify mistakes, such as sending money to the wrong place.

I guess we could say when you are receiving you want irreversibility if you're planning to rip off your customers or otherwise not fulfil your contract with them

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#206

Post by menzoic »

amasad wrote: post #41

> To make their intentions clear, Ethereum’s core developers reprogrammed their PoW code to create an exponential rise in mining difficulty. Known as the “Difficulty Bomb,” it began slowing the creation of new transaction blocks in late 2016 and was expected to bring ether mining to a grinding halt a few years thereafter. > This time bomb has, however, functioned more like an alarm clock with a snooze button. In Octo…

> How can Ethereum be decentralized if they can so easily keep changing it?

Decentralization doesn't mean it needs to be immutable. It just means that power and responsibility is distriubted to many.

> I'm a total dilettante in crypto but if something is decentralized you can't make large-scale changes to it at the drop of a hat.

Exactly, you're correct. It's not easy for these changes to actually take effect. It takes a majority of miners to vote for and adopt any change/fork. The miners are the ones who are running the decentralized network. Even miners who vote for the change can choose to not upgrade their software to the new version.

> Imagine how much coordination effort it takes to change TCP/IP or HTTP

This is why I'm amazed at the skill of the Bitcoin & Ethereum team's ability to continue upgrading a platform that has no central control.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#207

Post by jki275 »

menzoic wrote: post #206
amasad wrote: post #41

> To make their intentions clear, Ethereum’s core developers reprogrammed their PoW code to create an exponential rise in mining difficulty. Known as the “Difficulty Bomb,” it began slowing the creation of new transaction blocks in late 2016 and was expected to bring ether mining to a grinding halt a few years thereafter. > This time bomb has, however, functioned more like an alarm clock with a snooze button. In Octo…

> How can Ethereum be decentralized if they can so easily keep changing it? Decentralization doesn't mean it needs to be immutable. It just means that power and responsibility is distriubted to many. > I'm a total dilettante in crypto but if something is decentralized you can't make large-scale changes to it at the drop of a hat. Exactly, you're correct. It's not easy for these changes to actually take effect. It tak…

The miners have zero incentive to ever let it go to proof of stake, as the instant they do they lose their income stream.

So the "snooze button" as they call it, is pretty much guaranteed to keep getting pushed.

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#208

Post by andimule »

w1nt3rmu4e wrote: post #170
anthonybsd wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tezos uses delegated PoS, so no, I don't think it qualifies. D-PoS is sort of antithetical to the idea of decentralized blockchain due to a small number of nodes and very questionable process of node (witness) selection.

Incorrect. 1. The number of nodes is not fixed. 2. The process for node selection is random, based on the amount staked. This happens continuously. 3. The D in DPoS is entirely optional. Anyone holding Tezos can directly participate by running a node. The only cost is the cost of a VPS. The only real restriction* is a 10000 XTZ minimum for running a node. At current / ICO prices that's around $5k. While that's not ch…

Good points, though I'll just clarify that 10000 XTZ is only required if you want your node to produce blocks.

Some numbers regarding decentralisation: The last couple of (3-day) cycles the number of unique blockproducing nodes (bakers) has averaged just above 200 pr cycle, and is steadily increasing. The Tezos foundation nodes are now down to producing ~25% of the blocks.

I recommend this post for anyone interested in Tezos 'Liquid Proof of Stake'-model: https://medium.com/tezos/liquid-proof-of-stake-aec2f7ef1da7

Re: Ethereum Plans to Cut Its Energy Consumption by 99 Percent

#209

Post by jki275 »

baq wrote: post #166
adrianN wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there was a thief. Before the fork, the very point of Ethereum was that code is law and there is no need for human interpretation. The so-called thief merely noticed that the DAO code had a feature that allowed them to extract money from it, and they did.

thus, the code has changed and with it the law. i don't see any problem here.

It was changed to fix the chain retroactively. That's the problem. If the ledger isn't immutable, it has no value as a ledger.

The majority of the ETH world doesn't believe that, which is why people like Charles Hoskinson left it.

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