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Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

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Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there are those issues but I suspect you are not not 100% commenting in good faith here.

> Yes there are those issues but I suspect you are not not 100% commenting in good faith here. I don't even know what this accusation is supposed to mean. Could you spell out what "bad faith" you are imputing here?

I don't know if it's bad faith, but you're describing a property the entire society had at the time. Perhaps the unions were worse than most, but that's not the case you're making. Also, it's not clear how your claims and those of the article can't both be true.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#72
post #49

He mentions the impact of globalization, but I think that it's a much bigger deal than he makes of it. For work that can easily be offshored (manufacturing, software dev, phone/online support, creative work, etc.) the obvious corporate response to unionization it to move shop. OTOH, for professions that can't easily be offshored (medical, local services such as fire/police/utilities, education, etc.), many are still…

> Some of the unions are non-traditional - for instance, the AMA (American Medical Association) effectively serves a role as a Doctors' union even though they don't advertise themselves as such. They control training into the profession, they are the sole arbiter of who can practice the profession, and they generally work to suppress supply below the level of demand (and therefore drive up wages). None of this is tru…

The AMA might not control it directly, but like any good union, they are politically active and have members on the relevant controlling bodies...

https://www.forbes.com/2009/08/25/american-medical-associati...

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/11/its-doctors-w...

When both Forbes and MotherJones can agree on something (maybe this is the only thing :) ), there must be some truth to it.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#73
post #54
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did he say that? Was there an edit?

Which parts of the world do you think he’s talking about that are stealing industries from the US?

Did he say anything about stealing industries?

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#74
post #44

I've often thought there should be a union in tech, similar to the way the directors guild and screen actors guild operate. Not to set maximums on compensation, but to set humane minimums and provide continuity and health insurance in a pooled way, perhaps.

Do you think there are software engineers making wages you would consider inhumane ?

Game Developers. Around $30-40k per year to live and work for 80 to 100 hours a week in locations where the cost of living is higher than average. Toss in a lack of job security (regular layoffs as projects complete and a ready supply of raw recruits) and it fits my definition of inhumane.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#75

This may not be the venue to get good answers but what are the likely costs of unionization in software? How would management respond to organized tech labor? What would be the economic impacts? Not looking for pro- or anti-union sloganeering, but real impacts. The economics of the tech sector would change dramatically with organized labor in computing, and I'm interested in how those changes would manifest.

Software engineers would have extreme (maybe unprecedented?) striking power. It's an industry where the workers are needed for both interviewing and training, so hiring scabs would be extremely hard.

Management knows that already, so they'll do whatever they can to stop unionization. Retaliating against attempts to unionize are illegal, but internal anti-union propaganda campaigns are common in other industries, and I think you can expect not just what already exists, but better-funded campaigns and targeted to people more like you.

Management would also try other methods to get around the union. More outsourcing, contracting entire projects out and requesting documentation or support contracts. These don't work well - they always cost more than expected, take longer than expected, and are a pain to maintain - but they do work some, so with unions raising wages that'd move the bar towards a little more outsourcing. I'd also expect it to take management a while to relearn that outsourcing doesn't work very well, since it's been a while. Many companies will be willing to pay more for outsourced labor than union labor, because strong unions are a long-term threat to the investor class. If the union covers multiple companies it'll be more resistant to all of this and generally more effective.

The effects on the workers depends on the union's goals and determination. The biggest test is its first strike; how many employees actually go through with it and how long can they last. That depends a lot on the strike fund; even though we're a wealthy industry that should be able to make a strong strike fund, I'd expect a lot of programmers to be suspicious about it (then again I've heard more union talk this year than I have in the rest of my career combined, so maybe they're coming around). I expect the union will achieve all of its goals, as software engineers will drastically underestimate how much striking power they have. Judging by conversations I've had, I'd expect priorities to be: major commitments to privacy/security/ethics/maintainability, improved working conditions (less dense open offices, maybe an end to open offices), and maybe more vacation time. Increased pay seems to be a low priority among workers I've talked to.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#76
post #73
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which parts of the world do you think he’s talking about that are stealing industries from the US?

Did he say anything about stealing industries?

He said take, which doesn’t change my argument in any way.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#77
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some of the unions are non-traditional - for instance, the AMA (American Medical Association) effectively serves a role as a Doctors' union even though they don't advertise themselves as such. They control training into the profession, they are the sole arbiter of who can practice the profession, and they generally work to suppress supply below the level of demand (and therefore drive up wages). None of this is tru…

The AMA might not control it directly , but like any good union, they are politically active and have members on the relevant controlling bodies... https://www.forbes.com/2009/08/25/american-medical-associati... https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/11/its-doctors-w... When both Forbes and MotherJones can agree on something (maybe this is the only thing :) ), there must be some truth to it.

> The AMA might not control it directly, but like any good union, they are politically active and have members on the relevant controlling bodies...

The first article you link claims (with no basis) that the AMA was responsible for the current funding shortfall. The second article doesn't mention the AMA at all.

In reality, the AMA has been pretty clear and consistent in advocating to increase funding for GME. https://www.ama-assn.org/education/gme-funding/save-graduate...

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#78
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes there are those issues but I suspect you are not not 100% commenting in good faith here. I don't even know what this accusation is supposed to mean. Could you spell out what "bad faith" you are imputing here?

I don't know if it's bad faith, but you're describing a property the entire society had at the time. Perhaps the unions were worse than most, but that's not the case you're making. Also, it's not clear how your claims and those of the article can't both be true.

> I don't know if it's bad faith, but you're describing a property the entire society had at the time. Perhaps the unions were worse than most, but that's not the case you're making.

It's not true that lobbying the government to enact explicitly white supremacist legislation is "a property the entire society had at the time".

> Also, it's not clear how your claims and those of the article can't both be true.

It's disingenuous at best for the HN headline to read "Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class" when unions systematically discriminated against working-class Americans of Chinese, Indian, Mexican, and Japanese descent.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#79

The title "Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class" does the topic a great injustice, obfuscating the origins of many modern labor unions (including the AFL-CIO) as functional white supremacist organizations. If you were Chinese or Indian, unions were directly responsible for your deportation. If you were Japanese, unions were directly responsible for your family's forced internment. If you were Puerto…

The article addresses racial injustice directly, although not in the direction that you think:

> [Freeman and Medoff] showed that contrary to popular belief, unions actually decreased racial wage disparities.

> A recent paper by economists Henry Farber, Daniel Herbst, Ilyana Kuziemko and Suresh Naidu concludes that unions were an important force reducing inequality in the U.S. [...] The authors find that as unionization rises, inequality tends to fall, and vice versa. Nor is this effect driven by greater skills and education on the part of union workers; during the era from 1940 through 1970, when unionization rose and inequality fell, union workers tended to be less educated than others. In other words, unions lifted the workers at the bottom of the distribution. Black workers, and other nonwhite workers, tended to benefit the most from the union boost.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#80

Unions were great at stifling innovation and destroying some of our former industries such as Steel and Automotive - see what's left of former very wealthy Detroit. The classic example is the unions not allowing the Toyota Lean Production system in, as then you would need fewer workers. So in not allowing innovation, the unions were key factors in destroying entire industries which have now been built elsewhere. If t…

> Unions were great at stifling innovation and destroying some of our former industries such as Steel and Automotive

The local manifestations of those industries were destroyed by globalization (which unions fought tooth and nail), not unions.

Those industries simply weren't where America's comparative advantage was in a globalized marketplace.

> The classic example is the unions not allowing the Toyota Lean Production system in,

The UAW did, in fact, let TPS in—not some loose copy, but the actual thing itself—at NUMMI.

GM had trouble copying the parts some of its leadership wanted of TPS for its own internal use, but those included massive resistance from their own internal managers as well as labor. And it probably wouldn't have worked for GM because of path dependence; TPS is a system relying on a substantial degree of mutual trust between labor and management, but while a new relationship can start with a clean slate, a strong established history is hard to erase.

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