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Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

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Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#41

Post by dv_dt »

gibsonf1 wrote: post #18

Unions were great at stifling innovation and destroying some of our former industries such as Steel and Automotive - see what's left of former very wealthy Detroit. The classic example is the unions not allowing the Toyota Lean Production system in, as then you would need fewer workers. So in not allowing innovation, the unions were key factors in destroying entire industries which have now been built elsewhere. If t…

See I sort of think historically, US unions were reactions to strongly abusive management at some point in company history. After they become entrenched, I agree that worker management relations can end up confrontational, and likely less efficient. But it's a two way relationship at the root there.

But this isn't a forgone conclusion, for example worker relations seem to work fine in general in Germany which has actually institutionalized worker representation at a fairly high level in corporations.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#42

Post by darawk »

jshen wrote: post #25
gibsonf1 wrote: post #18

Unions were great at stifling innovation and destroying some of our former industries such as Steel and Automotive - see what's left of former very wealthy Detroit. The classic example is the unions not allowing the Toyota Lean Production system in, as then you would need fewer workers. So in not allowing innovation, the unions were key factors in destroying entire industries which have now been built elsewhere. If t…

It’s funny that you consider China freer than America. It shows that what you mean by freedom isn’t really freedom.

Where did he say that? Was there an edit?

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#44

Post by darawk »

jaggederest wrote: post #3

I've often thought there should be a union in tech, similar to the way the directors guild and screen actors guild operate. Not to set maximums on compensation, but to set humane minimums and provide continuity and health insurance in a pooled way, perhaps.

Do you think there are software engineers making wages you would consider inhumane?

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#45

Post by sjg007 »

briandear wrote: post #21

Is wage stagnation an actual problem? Here’s a view challenging that premise: https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/myths-of-inequality-and-s...

You should consider your source here. The Brookings Institute has aggressively courted corporate donations so the article you cite may be biased.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/07/24/us/politics/d...

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#46

Post by Kalium »

walshemj wrote: post #33
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also like such a guild to remove people from the guild for intentionally performing law breaking(or unethical) behavior- such so that individual workers can say "I can't do that, my guild will oust me" and will take the heat off themselves. I'm not sure if actor/director guilds do this, though, I've only seen it in licensing orgs.

There is a problem with that is how do you define what is "law breaking" / "unethical" - its not a Unions job to be judge an jury here also it would make it hard to recruit widely. And can we not use the term guild in TU history has some very negative connotations.

> And can we not use the term guild in TU history has some very negative connotations.

Some actively call themselves guilds today - Writers Guild, Screen Actors Guild, Directors Guild of America, etc. Should we not use their word of choice?

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#47

Post by LeanderK »

I am convinced that unions would have a positive impact even on high-paying and in-demand jobs like software-engineering. From vacations, protection against unfair practices (for example unfairy formulated shares in startups as compensations) to protection agains high-stress burnout-inducing enviroments, there is still a lot to do.

It's just not really pressing because everything is good enough, so that's why it's not happenning (in my opinion).

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#48

Post by jshen »

gruez wrote: post #39
jshen wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s funny that you consider China freer than America. It shows that what you mean by freedom isn’t really freedom.

Did GP ninja edit his post? I see no mention of china in his post.

What “freer parts of the world” is he talking about when it comes to stealing industries?

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#49

Post by danjayh »

He mentions the impact of globalization, but I think that it's a much bigger deal than he makes of it. For work that can easily be offshored (manufacturing, software dev, phone/online support, creative work, etc.) the obvious corporate response to unionization it to move shop. OTOH, for professions that can't easily be offshored (medical, local services such as fire/police/utilities, education, etc.), many are still heavily unionized. Some of the unions are non-traditional - for instance, the AMA (American Medical Association) effectively serves a role as a Doctors' union even though they don't advertise themselves as such. They control training into the profession, they are the sole arbiter of who can practice the profession, and they generally work to suppress supply below the level of demand (and therefore drive up wages).

OTOH, software is already being offshored at a rapid pace (I really doubt whether I'd recommend that my children go into the profession), and I think that labor organization would only serve to accelerate that. Having said that, it probably could prevent some of the more egregious benefit erosions that plague our industry ("unlimited" vacation, anyone?) ... which would be nice while it lasted.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#50

Post by barnesto »

jaggederest wrote: post #3

I've often thought there should be a union in tech, similar to the way the directors guild and screen actors guild operate. Not to set maximums on compensation, but to set humane minimums and provide continuity and health insurance in a pooled way, perhaps.

yep and then watch the continued increases in H2B visas or the outright offshoring to any number of Asian nations
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