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Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

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Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#11
post #5

This may not be the venue to get good answers but what are the likely costs of unionization in software? How would management respond to organized tech labor? What would be the economic impacts? Not looking for pro- or anti-union sloganeering, but real impacts. The economics of the tech sector would change dramatically with organized labor in computing, and I'm interested in how those changes would manifest.

I wonder how unionized labor would interact with US visas. If you're on an H-1b and your union goes on strike.....do you have to leave the country?

As someone who is ready to join a tech union, I would advocate for legislation that allows for you to remain in the US on your H1B during a labor dispute.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#12
post #5

This may not be the venue to get good answers but what are the likely costs of unionization in software? How would management respond to organized tech labor? What would be the economic impacts? Not looking for pro- or anti-union sloganeering, but real impacts. The economics of the tech sector would change dramatically with organized labor in computing, and I'm interested in how those changes would manifest.

I wonder how unionized labor would interact with US visas. If you're on an H-1b and your union goes on strike.....do you have to leave the country?

Only if you get fired.

Afaik you’re allowed to stay in the country as ling as you are employed by the employer on your visa regardless of whether you are working or not.

Can you be fired for going on strike?

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#13
I haven't read the paper and I probably won't, but it seems suspicious to me that the 1940 to 1970 timeframe mentioned just happens to coincide with WW2 and the aftermath and recovery. If you aren't prepared to systematically destroy foreign cities and industry I don't think you can recreate those conditions.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#14

This may not be the venue to get good answers but what are the likely costs of unionization in software? How would management respond to organized tech labor? What would be the economic impacts? Not looking for pro- or anti-union sloganeering, but real impacts. The economics of the tech sector would change dramatically with organized labor in computing, and I'm interested in how those changes would manifest.

Tricky to say, as software engineering is a somewhat unique profession.

Going by what happens in other industries, you'd reasonably expect a flattening of wages (both inter and intra firm) and an increase in the average wage. You'd also expect entry into the field to become harder, and exit from the field (both voluntary and involuntary) to become rarer. Fewer workers would be employed overall, though per capita productivity would increase; the overall effect would probably mean more money allocated to labor, less to capital holders, and higher costs for consumers. Work rules would increase, e.g. no one allowed to be on call for more than X hours a year, or a SWE not being allowed/required to take on job responsibilities outside the scope of the initial job offer except as facilitated by formal processes.

Many of these effects will disproportionately benefit women and racial minorities (this is a rare case where "racial minorities" includes Asians of various sorts, as they're paid less than white people in the field, though that's in large part to the power employers have over visa holders).

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#15

I've often thought there should be a union in tech, similar to the way the directors guild and screen actors guild operate. Not to set maximums on compensation, but to set humane minimums and provide continuity and health insurance in a pooled way, perhaps.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13870540 for some pointers

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#16

I've often thought there should be a union in tech, similar to the way the directors guild and screen actors guild operate. Not to set maximums on compensation, but to set humane minimums and provide continuity and health insurance in a pooled way, perhaps.

Some of those guilds set minimums in part to provide barriers to entry. They're not solely acting in the interests of compassion and kindness. We do nobody any favors by pretending there's no economic logic at work.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#17

I've often thought there should be a union in tech, similar to the way the directors guild and screen actors guild operate. Not to set maximums on compensation, but to set humane minimums and provide continuity and health insurance in a pooled way, perhaps.

I would also like such a guild to remove people from the guild for intentionally performing law breaking(or unethical) behavior- such so that individual workers can say "I can't do that, my guild will oust me" and will take the heat off themselves. I'm not sure if actor/director guilds do this, though, I've only seen it in licensing orgs.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#18
Unions were great at stifling innovation and destroying some of our former industries such as Steel and Automotive - see what's left of former very wealthy Detroit. The classic example is the unions not allowing the Toyota Lean Production system in, as then you would need fewer workers. So in not allowing innovation, the unions were key factors in destroying entire industries which have now been built elsewhere.

If this were to happen to software etc, it will just destroy innovation here and the other freer parts of the world will take the work.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#19
They did. Right before they didn't.

It's a shame grassroots attempts to address exploitation usually turn into another form of exploitation if not out and out gangsterism.

See: the communist revolution, the origins of the Italian Mafia, some cartels in Mexico.

In the US unions did much good for society in general. But now we are saddled with things like public sector unions which do very much the opposite.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#20
The title "Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class" does the topic a great injustice, obfuscating the origins of many modern labor unions (including the AFL-CIO) as functional white supremacist organizations.

If you were Chinese or Indian, unions were directly responsible for your deportation. If you were Japanese, unions were directly responsible for your family's forced internment. If you were Puerto Rican, unions were responsible for the genocide that was committed against your mother, wife, and daughter. The AFL wan't shy in the least about its intentions. If you read the contemporary writings of its leaders, as well as the mass media that they produced (flyers, pamphlets, etc.), they were very blatant about their desire to protect jobs for white members by stripping naturalized Americans of Asian descent of their citizenship and deporting them. The language that was used to describe Chinese workers mirrors the exact same dehumanizing comparisons to animals that were later used by the Nazis[0].

If you dislike the current US visa system, with its draconian system of per-country quotas, you have labor unions from the 1950s to thank for that as well.

It's highly unpopular to talk about this, and so I fully expect to take a hit for bringing this up, but it needs to be said.

[0] They even published a pamphlet which referred to the Chinese as a "race question" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_question)

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