Ways to Bring Tech Jobs to Rural Areas • Hacker News Board

Re: Ways to Bring Tech Jobs to Rural Areas

#141

Post by shard972 » Wed, Jan 02, 2019, 1:30 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #117

... They are proud of their small-town values .... And this part of the issue. I come from a small town. The “values” of small towns are racist, homophopic, and nationalistic. I’ve known many people who moved away, started dating someone of another race and then come back home with their significant other and feel completely out of place - not because of family, but because of the city. I’ve also had gay relatives wh…

> And this part of the issue. I come from a small town. The “values” of small towns are racist, homophopic, and nationalistic.

As someone that comes from small towns and lives in the city, I find city dwellers to be much more racist and judging than rural folk. The fact that you put nationalistic next to racism probably tells me trying to get into a intellectual conversation about this though isn't going to get anywhere.

Re: Ways to Bring Tech Jobs to Rural Areas

#142

Post by scarface74 » Wed, Jan 02, 2019, 1:32 AM UTC

shard972 wrote: post #141

scarface74 wrote: post #117

... They are proud of their small-town values .... And this part of the issue. I come from a small town. The “values” of small towns are racist, homophopic, and nationalistic. I’ve known many people who moved away, started dating someone of another race and then come back home with their significant other and feel completely out of place - not because of family, but because of the city. I’ve also had gay relatives wh…

> And this part of the issue. I come from a small town. The “values” of small towns are racist, homophopic, and nationalistic. As someone that comes from small towns and lives in the city, I find city dwellers to be much more racist and judging than rural folk. The fact that you put nationalistic next to racism probably tells me trying to get into a intellectual conversation about this though isn't going to get anywh…

Being “nationalistic” and racists are two separate things.

Re: Ways to Bring Tech Jobs to Rural Areas

#143

Post by shard972 » Wed, Jan 02, 2019, 1:34 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #140

nkurz wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more a question of the number of newcomers, and their desire to integrate into the community versus their desire to change it to be like their place of origin. Some small towns seem very happy to accept hard working immigrants who they perceive to have compatible moral values. For non-straight, I'm occasionally surprised by how well integrated (and even beloved) some non-straight inhabitants have been in…

I think it's more a question of the number of new comers, and their desire to integrate into the community versus their desire to change it to be like their place of origin. How will a non Christian “integrate” into rural America and “share their values”, by converting to Christianity? How will either a gay couple or an interracial couple “integrate” where some Christians think their “lifestyle” is a sin? https://www…

> How will a non Christian “integrate” into rural America and “share their values”, by converting to Christianity? How will either a gay couple or an interracial couple “integrate” where some Christians think their “lifestyle” is a sin?

Probably better than a gay in rural iraq, iran, syria, jordan, isreal, china, japan, india, africa and many other countries.

Re: Ways to Bring Tech Jobs to Rural Areas

#144

Post by scarface74 » Wed, Jan 02, 2019, 1:41 AM UTC

shard972 wrote: post #143

scarface74 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more a question of the number of new comers, and their desire to integrate into the community versus their desire to change it to be like their place of origin. How will a non Christian “integrate” into rural America and “share their values”, by converting to Christianity? How will either a gay couple or an interracial couple “integrate” where some Christians think their “lifestyle” is a sin? https://www…

> How will a non Christian “integrate” into rural America and “share their values”, by converting to Christianity? How will either a gay couple or an interracial couple “integrate” where some Christians think their “lifestyle” is a sin? Probably better than a gay in rural iraq, iran, syria, jordan, isreal, china, japan, india, africa and many other countries.

But we aren’t talking about other countries. We are talking about rural America vs larger cities.

Re: Ways to Bring Tech Jobs to Rural Areas

#145

Post by scarface74 » Wed, Jan 02, 2019, 1:55 AM UTC

downrightmike wrote: post #97

bcherny wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could it be that you need to first invest in fiber, then you need to invest in other things like small business incentives and attracting VC?

The crux of the problem is that people only talk about jobs, and other people/corporations creating those jobs. Everyone can agree we need more jobs and better jobs. The real issue is that people aren't finding ways to start their own business, make themselves a job. Politicians use the word "jobs" like saying it makes them appear. And too many people think that is how is should work. Those people miss out. Make a go…

You act like it’s just that simple

1. Have an idea for a profitabld business

2. Raise enough money until the business becomes profitable and self sustaining

People in the tech industry are so use to being able to get money from VCs once they get to step 1 and aren’t concerned with step 2 because they are just trying to survive long enough to have an “exit strategy”.

Re: Ways to Bring Tech Jobs to Rural Areas

#146

Post by ghaff » Wed, Jan 02, 2019, 2:40 AM UTC

jonstewart wrote: post #120

rayiner wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to tease out what you value, in an economic sense. Khanna is proposing to spend a bunch of taxpayer money building fiber in rural areas, in hopes that it helps economically revitalize these places. But you're someone who already works in tech , and judges a house to be "closer to the ideal across a range of factors" even though it has nothing faster than DSL. If someone who already has a need for fast conn…

Well, for me, it isn’t about living there full-time, so the best possible connectivity wasn’t the biggest consideration; advertised DSL goes up to 18Mbps or more, and discounting that ideal to, say, 8-10 Mbps would still leave me in okay shape. The other factors were things like: size of property (35+ acres), quality of property (trails, garden space, places for kids to play outside, natural beauty, conservation), th…

>I’m semi-optimistic about fixed wireless

I might be a bit pessimistic because WiMAX ended up being such a bust. OTOH, it seems as if consumer bandwidth needs are probably plateauing to a certain degree so another generation of wireless can possibly get things to a good enough point for many purposes.

Re: Ways to Bring Tech Jobs to Rural Areas

#147

Post by ghaff » Wed, Jan 02, 2019, 2:49 AM UTC

LyndsySimon wrote: post #106

Education is not the issue, in my experience - career opportunities are. I work remotely and live in a rural area. To get my career to the point where I could reliably find remote work, I moved to Charlottesville, VA for five years. Meanwhile, of the 20 or so people I’ve tracked down with two-year degrees intended to train them for tech jobs, exactly zero have done so. The primary problem that I see is that no one wa…

Speaking as someone who mostly works remotely (after multiple decades of working in an office most of the time), I have a lot of trouble envisioning coming out of school and sitting in an apartment at my computer all day. Sure, there are consulting jobs where you spend most of your days at a client site or otherwise don't work from an office much. Perhaps had I had a job like that I'd feel differently. But going straight from school to a fully remote engineering position would, I think, have been very difficult for me.

Re: Ways to Bring Tech Jobs to Rural Areas

#148

Post by lsc » Wed, Jan 02, 2019, 2:53 AM UTC

jelliclesfarm wrote: post #135

lsc wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As long as one doesn’t own land and has to rely on hired labour, there is no point in farming near a city. As a hobby, yes. Otherwise, no. so, my understanding is that most of the farming that happens outside of CA, cereal crops and the like, is super capital intensive, but not very labor intensive. On the farm I was speaking of before that has been in my family for some time (though it has consolidated; there's one…

Many points. I will address them and this is just my 2c: 1. I think there has to be local food and food security in the form of local urban Ag even for big cities. Why? 2. Because. Supply chain is convoluted. We are entering a whole diff timeline when fossil fuel based Ag is just not going to be sustainable. 3. We are losing habitat and degrading environment by compartmentalising Ag. Even in rural Ag areas, watertabl…

Hey, so first, I might be reading your post wrong, but... it seems like you might want to check out intentional communities; like I think visiting one might be what you are looking for in that sustainable agricultural lifestyle you want?

I just think it's really important to know that there are other people in the world like you, that you fit in somewhere; even if you don't end up living in that place, I personally find it hugely comforting to know there's a place where I fit in. (for me, that place is Silicon Valley. I totally understand that not everyone feels welcome here, but I feel welcome here in a way that I've never felt welcome anywhere else. I think the place like that is different for everyone, and that it's important to find it.) and from reading your post, I think you might find something like that feeling at one of these communes.

I was born here: https://www.eastwindblog.co -

they do a bunch of agriculture related stuff, and have a culture that is also very concerned about sustainability, but that also is interested in automation; they have several agriculture-adjacent businesses, and they grow most of their own food. (I don't know how much food they grow to sell; they certainly process and sell a lot of nut-butters, with a focus on nutbutters for people who need careful separation of types of nuts: https://www.eastwindnutbutters.com ) and, in fact, some of their alumini have gone on to start serious companies: NASDAQ: AGNC

Cat Kincade was involved (though she was more involved with Twin Oaks, a similar commune in Canada) - I mention this because she's a pretty good author, and wrote a lot about her experiences at the commune, so if you want to read up on it before giving it a visit, I'd start with her.

I also know of a bunch of smaller communes that do agriculture on a more hobbyish basis (though still with a focus on sustainability) - I generally think you should check out the big ones, first, but if you are more comfortable with a smaller, more 'large family' sized group, my email should be in my profile and I can do a few introductions, or at least one I can certify as not crazy, who often will take in strangers who have agricultural interests. (I still think a major community like East Wind or Twin Oaks is probably better for long term living...)

Re: Ways to Bring Tech Jobs to Rural Areas

#149

Post by nkurz » Wed, Jan 02, 2019, 3:02 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #140

nkurz wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more a question of the number of newcomers, and their desire to integrate into the community versus their desire to change it to be like their place of origin. Some small towns seem very happy to accept hard working immigrants who they perceive to have compatible moral values. For non-straight, I'm occasionally surprised by how well integrated (and even beloved) some non-straight inhabitants have been in…

I think it's more a question of the number of new comers, and their desire to integrate into the community versus their desire to change it to be like their place of origin. How will a non Christian “integrate” into rural America and “share their values”, by converting to Christianity? How will either a gay couple or an interracial couple “integrate” where some Christians think their “lifestyle” is a sin? https://www…

As far as your article that says just the opposite of what you intended.

I read the article, and realize it's not entirely pro-immigrant. I meant what I said --- that I was surprised by how welcoming some of the town was. I was less surprised that there was also resistance. It's also worth noting that in the continuation of that quote, the speaker claims that he's not against immigrants in general, just against those who don't intend to integrate. I found that part to be positive: “Don’t get me wrong,” says Heaton, who’ll retire from the legislature in 2019. “The only thing that upsets me is if they’re coming, they need to blend. I don’t need ‘barrios.’ I don’t need these certain sectors where everything is still the way it was where they came from. If you’re going to meld, then meld.”

How will a non Christian “integrate” into rural America and “share their values”, by converting to Christianity?

It's tough. I think (I'm white but not Christian) that it can often be done by practicing shared values, independent of belief. If you are working on the same food drive or Habitat-for-Humanity house, a majority of Christians are willing to (at least temporarily) overlook the error of your religious beliefs (or lack thereof). If you simply don't share their values, well, that's where I think the real problems are.

I do wonder if being black in America might actually be worse for integration than being Hispanic or Asian. Even in small towns, I'm frequently surprised by how fully integrated and accepted by the community the second and subsequent generations are. In some ways, this seems more complete than in larger cities where there is a sizeable enough immigrant community to avoid integration. I haven't seen that as frequently for black Americans. Thoughts?

Re: Ways to Bring Tech Jobs to Rural Areas

#150

Post by lsc » Wed, Jan 02, 2019, 3:06 AM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #137

lsc wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are a lot of dubious claims about education though. I would take the whole thing with a grain of salt. Some even claim that gaining an education will result in earning more money, all while incomes have remained stagnant for decades upon decades and educational attainment has ballooned. How does one earn more money while also earning the same amount of money...? all incomes? are you seriously going to clam tha…

> all incomes? are you seriously going to clam that incomes for tech workers and others of this Tech workers make up, what, about 5% of the workforce at best? I know software developers only make up 0.8% of the workforce. We are talking about an exceedingly small group of people. And not all of them are doing well. There are a lot of low-paid tech workers around, especially if you look beyond the Bay Area and outside…

>There are always outliers who buck the mold, but on the whole incomes are not rising even for those with education. And why would they? It does not follow from any realistic economic model that incomes should increase.

My model is that technology has allowed us to produce more per unit effort; Even in my field, I can manage a whole lot more computers than I could when I started in the mid to late '90s.

For that matter, even if I was still fixing desktop computers, if I'm fixing desktop computers for EEs this year who are massively more productive than they would have been in the late '90s because of improved technology, it's natural that I'd still get paid more, because even if I'm only saving those people the same number of work hours, those work hours produce more and thus there's more surplus to pay me.

It seems totally reasonable that increased productivity could lead to increased wages. (I mean, there are a bunch of failure modes where it wouldn't, to... but I'm just saying, anyone who is even slightly ideologically capitalist or market oriented is going to argue that increased productivity drives increased income)