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Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

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Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#291

Post by grecy »

chrisseaton wrote: post #203
grecy wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I studied a degree called "Software Engineering" and am acredited by the Australian Institute of Engineers (the first, and AFAIK, only, Software degree that is certified). Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering".

> Working in Canada where my degree was not certified If they have an engineering conference in Canada, and a notable engineering expert comes from abroad to speak but isn't from a Canadian certified school (perhaps they're from a British one instead) do they get uptight about that as well? At some point they must accept that non-Canadian-certified people can be engineers as well?

I think the problem revolved around me actually working, not just visiting.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#292

Post by daveFNbuck »

alphakilo wrote: post #283
subway wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the legislative bodies in the provinces and territories. For instance in BC: http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/9611...

I am actually a Software Engineering Undergraduate Student in Canada. We are real engineers! We get licenced the same way through graduating from an accredited program, getting the 4 years of experience and writing an ethics exam. In Canada engineer is like lawyer. You can specialize in a certain part of law (e.g. patent, corporate, criminal). just like you specialize in certain fields (e.g. aerospace, mechanical, ge…

I didn't know about that. Is the license legally required to be hired for all programming jobs, or just for jobs related to specific fields and government?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#293

Post by daveFNbuck »

logifail wrote: post #278
daveFNbuck wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue here is probably more that software engineering isn't considered to be engineering in Canada. If a notable historian from a country where they call historians engineers came to the country to speak, people probably would get uptight about that.

>> The issue here is probably more that software engineering isn't considered to be engineering in Canada By whom? Canadian software engineers, other types of Canadian engineers, or by some professional engineering body that's trying to protect their profession?

I had assumed by everyone. As an American software engineer, I don't consider software engineering to be engineering because we don't have a professional body or licensing or standards. I didn't know Canada was any different.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#294

Post by asdff »

8bitsrule wrote: post #117

Always find people amusing who think identity is built around a person currently employed because of their skill-set. I recall talking to a person years ago when I was between jobs as a [job title]. "What do you do?" "Oh, I'm a [job title]." "Oh nice. Where do you [job title] at?" "I'm not [job title]ing anywhere at the moment." "Oooooooh, well! Then you're not a [job title]!" By this logic, you're not a blacksmith i…

Doctors don't become 'mister' the day they stop practicing, that's also a title you keep for life.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#295

Post by chrisseaton »

daveFNbuck wrote: post #293
logifail wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The issue here is probably more that software engineering isn't considered to be engineering in Canada By whom? Canadian software engineers, other types of Canadian engineers, or by some professional engineering body that's trying to protect their profession?

I had assumed by everyone. As an American software engineer, I don't consider software engineering to be engineering because we don't have a professional body or licensing or standards. I didn't know Canada was any different.

> I don't consider software engineering to be engineering because we don't have a professional body or licensing or standards

Why would this be the defining characteristic of engineering?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#296

Post by naasking »

vonmoltke wrote: post #239
naasking wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everything is about process, audit and testing And how do you know the process, auditing and testing was done? With documentation signed by someone who can verify this and is legally liable if it wasn't done properly.

When I worked at Raytheon, there were no PEs n staff signing off on process documents or conducting audits of our design, manufacturing, or testing processes. Processes were developed in accordance with relevant ISO/IEEE/ASME/whatever standards, and these standards were periodically audited by external people certified by the corresponding standards body. While many of the older engineers had PEs, I do not recall any…

And that's great when you have Raytheon's reputstion, clout, budget and bargaining power with insurance companies. If you want to start an engineering firm, I expect that having an accredited professional engineer on staff to ensure these processes are respected or the work meets certain standards will significantly affect your premiums. I wouldn't underestimate these costs, particularly for a new company.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#297

Post by naasking »

ThenAsNow wrote: post #272
yc-kraln wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My computer engineering degree included Chemistry, Physics, Mechanical Engineering (statics/dynamics) Multivariate Calculus, Differential Equations / Linear Algebra, as well as Humanities (writing, history, art) in addition to software, hardware, electronics... Am I not coming close to the "bar of engineering"? You can boil engineering down (maybe a bit much, but bear with me) to: plan, execute, measure, adjust. The…

> My computer engineering degree included Chemistry, Physics, Mechanical Engineering (statics/dynamics) Multivariate Calculus, Differential Equations / Linear Algebra, as well as Humanities (writing, history, art) in addition to software, hardware, electronics... Am I not coming close to the "bar of engineering"? I'm not making a point about degrees and coursework covered per se, more so about the practice of the pro…

> If soundness is trumped by other considerations, e.g., "development velocity", developer availability, convenience of tooling, etc., I would say you are not practicing engineering

I think you could argue they might be engaged in other forms of non-recognized engineering (like process engineering), but I agree that software is not what they're engineering.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#298

Post by daveFNbuck »

chrisseaton wrote: post #295
daveFNbuck wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had assumed by everyone. As an American software engineer, I don't consider software engineering to be engineering because we don't have a professional body or licensing or standards. I didn't know Canada was any different.

> I don't consider software engineering to be engineering because we don't have a professional body or licensing or standards Why would this be the defining characteristic of engineering?

It's not the defining characteristic, but I've always understood it to be a necessary requirement before a person can be called an engineer.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#299

Post by jpambrun »

criddell wrote: post #273
jpambrun wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. https://www.oiq.qc.ca/en/media/pressReleases/Pages/default.a...

That link isn't very clear. Plus it's only Quebec. I did a little Googling and in Ontario there are exceptions for flight engineer, train engineer, sound engineer, aircraft maintenance engineer, operating engineer, stationary engineer, and hoisting engineer.

I am from Quebec, so this what I know. The link says you can't and ask media to stop doing it. It also says that the train engineer union could keep his name because it existed before the law.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#300

Post by darpa_escapee »

kd5bjo wrote: post #202
darpa_escapee wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Howver, I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that ordinary people should not be able to tell their children, friends, parents, or anyone, medical advice. Please do not strawman my position. The discussion was about people purposely portraying themselves as doctors and then dispensing medical advice. I have no problem with someone giving medical advice. I do have a problem with someone pretending to be a d…

I get mistaken for somebody with authority all the time. What happens when a lay member of the public offers medical advice, and the recipient mistakes them for a doctor despite having made no claims to that title?

Given that we are talking about people who purposely portray themselves as doctors, I'm not sure how this is relevant.
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