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Mozilla: Ad on Firefox’s new tab page was just another experiment

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Re: Mozilla: Ad on Firefox’s new tab page was just another experiment

#51
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's reality, though: The minimum annual cash burn to have a high quality browser engine, js runtime, and UI seems to be several hundred million dollars. FF is now utterly dependent on google for cash (and to be fair, google really needs FF to exist to pretend chrome isn't close to a monopoly). But who knows how long that will last and if/when google will exert control. One of the best things for Mozilla to do as a…

I sometimes wonder why Firefox needs to be actively developed at all. The Web already has all the features it needs to be insanely successful, as evidenced by the fact that it's insanely successful. Why do we need to add more? Sure, security fixes are important, but it seems like browser developers spend more of their time on new features. Things like a new and exciting way to use asterisks in JavaScript, or another…

Even if you were right about that, Firefox doesn't really have a say. Chrome is intent on rapidly adding more Web features. If Firefox doesn't keep up with the pace, websites will stop working in Firefox because they use the new Chrome-supported features. This is a huge threat to Firefox, and has been made even worse by Edge adopting Chromium. Chromium now has huge market share, making any feature adopted by Chrome essentially mandatory for all browsers.

This is why Mozilla needs a stable source of revenue - both for the engineering work to remain competitive, and for marketing so they can persuade users to use Firefox and lessen Google's influence over the Web.

Re: Mozilla: Ad on Firefox’s new tab page was just another experiment

#52
Either Mozilla has been infiltrated by malicious actors or the modern crop of web-focused developers are so numb to current status quo of mass ads and tracking that they are unable to see alternatives or understand why people would be upset.

I find it a bit bizarre.

Re: Mozilla: Ad on Firefox’s new tab page was just another experiment

#53
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sometimes wonder why Firefox needs to be actively developed at all. The Web already has all the features it needs to be insanely successful, as evidenced by the fact that it's insanely successful. Why do we need to add more? Sure, security fixes are important, but it seems like browser developers spend more of their time on new features. Things like a new and exciting way to use asterisks in JavaScript, or another…

Even if you were right about that, Firefox doesn't really have a say. Chrome is intent on rapidly adding more Web features. If Firefox doesn't keep up with the pace, websites will stop working in Firefox because they use the new Chrome-supported features. This is a huge threat to Firefox, and has been made even worse by Edge adopting Chromium. Chromium now has huge market share, making any feature adopted by Chrome e…

Is there a reason to keep doing that? I mean what is the point in reimplementing Chromium as Firefox? Shouldn't they just fork Chromium and stop wasting resources chasing it? And focus those resources on something that can give them competitive advantage over Google.

Re: Mozilla: Ad on Firefox’s new tab page was just another experiment

#54
post #52

Either Mozilla has been infiltrated by malicious actors or the modern crop of web-focused developers are so numb to current status quo of mass ads and tracking that they are unable to see alternatives or understand why people would be upset. I find it a bit bizarre.

> "malicious actors"

Maybe, but my best guess is they've been 'infiltrated' by people with absolutely no ideological commitment to what Mozilla has traditionally stood for and instead view it as "just another job". Probably people with a stronger marketing background than anything else.

I think it's the best explanation for shit like this or the "mr robot tie in." These sort of advertisements aren't the sort of ideas a software developer with a commitment to free software and privacy would think up. These are the sort of ideas that come from people with a marketing background. I doubt these were bottom-up ideas, the order almost certainly came from the top down. I hate to say it but Mozilla's upper and middle management probably need to be gutted if this kind of crap is ever going to stop, and I doubt that will happen.

Re: Mozilla: Ad on Firefox’s new tab page was just another experiment

#55

Based on their logic ads in newspapers aren't ads because customer information isn't shared with the advertiser until they connect with the ad and visit their store.

that's not quite right. newspaper ads are paid placement, while these are not. being paid for placement is an essential feature of advertising. so to differentiate from that, mozilla uses the term "offer" here.

That's the same DoubleSpeak telemarketers used to say when you asked if they were a telemarketer. "No No, we're just informing you of this new offer in the middle of your dinner with your family."

Re: Mozilla: Ad on Firefox’s new tab page was just another experiment

#56
post #43

Mozilla's death will be one of the saddest dead-horse-beatings to be ever seen. Personally I've switched to Chrome after so many years of using Firefox and I'm not looking back. I'll be stabbed in the back, but I won't say I didn't expect it! Also the knife in my back will be placed by competent people, keeping my bleeding to a minimum ^_^

I've switched because chrome manages my accounts seamlessly across my Android phone and Desktop. It's an unfair advantage Google has. I don't know how Mozilla can compete in the long run.

Re: Mozilla: Ad on Firefox’s new tab page was just another experiment

#57
post #43

Mozilla's death will be one of the saddest dead-horse-beatings to be ever seen. Personally I've switched to Chrome after so many years of using Firefox and I'm not looking back. I'll be stabbed in the back, but I won't say I didn't expect it! Also the knife in my back will be placed by competent people, keeping my bleeding to a minimum ^_^

I've switched because chrome manages my accounts seamlessly across my Android phone and Desktop. It's an unfair advantage Google has. I don't know how Mozilla can compete in the long run.

From your answer, I assume you own an Android phone. Mozilla could compete because Firefox has Sync, but Firefox on Android is some seriously laggy shit with built-in ads, so it's going to be hard for them to win.

Re: Mozilla: Ad on Firefox’s new tab page was just another experiment

#58
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sometimes wonder why Firefox needs to be actively developed at all. The Web already has all the features it needs to be insanely successful, as evidenced by the fact that it's insanely successful. Why do we need to add more? Sure, security fixes are important, but it seems like browser developers spend more of their time on new features. Things like a new and exciting way to use asterisks in JavaScript, or another…

Even if you were right about that, Firefox doesn't really have a say. Chrome is intent on rapidly adding more Web features. If Firefox doesn't keep up with the pace, websites will stop working in Firefox because they use the new Chrome-supported features. This is a huge threat to Firefox, and has been made even worse by Edge adopting Chromium. Chromium now has huge market share, making any feature adopted by Chrome e…

I'm not sure I agree that Mozilla bears no responsibility for Web feature bloat. While you're right that Google currently appears to be stuffing every feature imaginable into their web browser at a breakneck pace in a desperate attempt to make it literally impossible for anyone else to write one, other browser vendors don't need to take it lying down. Imagine if Mozilla, Apple, and (pre-Chromium-fork) Microsoft all collectively agreed not to implement any more Web features: would websites really give up ~30% of their audience (including the lucrative iPhone crowd!) just to use some Chrome-only dingus?

As a nonprofit, Mozilla is in a great position to lead a charge like that. But they've chosen instead to make the problem even worse. On top of everything Google does, Mozilla also creates and implements its own dubiously necessary features (WebVR comes to mind) and uses venues like the Mozilla Hacks blog to promote them to developers.

Re: Mozilla: Ad on Firefox’s new tab page was just another experiment

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't resort to whataboutism to defend a move that would obviously alienate a very core part of Firefox's userbase. Being better than Chrome is a very low bar. This hubbub seems overblown to you, but not to others, and from your comments on this thread, you don't seem to understand why. Firefox has traditionally been the _only_ major browser that champions the traditional freedoms that many folks (myself inclu…

i deny your whataboutism and counter with slippery slope ! but seriously, i don’t think it’s a big deal because 1) no personal data is shared up front 2) it's an experiment 3) you can turn it off/block it 4) some people might appreciate the discount 5) there’s a wide non-slippery gulf between complete ad blocking and complete tracking 6) mozilla might find a decent compromise between those extremes, which is sorely m…

Please allow me to apologize in advance for the long rant that is to follow.

I think you're proving my point by insinuating that I need to put forth a way for Mozilla to find non-ad and non-Google revenue streams, and I also think you're misunderstanding me by implying I'm putting forward an emotional appeal -- I actually could care less about whether or not Mozilla Corp chooses to uphold the open source values that propelled it to success and relevance, I merely think it's poor decision making to ignore that if they wish to survive.

This, of course, was the heart of the question I posted to you at the end of my comment, and it is also something that you still haven't answered. Let me reiterate it: what is the key differentiator of Firefox? Why do people use it? You are talking about why you don't think it's a big deal. The thing is, whether you (or anyone else) thinks it is a big deal or not is simply not directly relevant to Mozilla and Firefox (although it is a signal). The question of whether it's strategically a good decision for them is actually important. I believe that it is not. To further illustrate that, let me make some arguments by comparison.

Is Python ad-supported? Is the Linux Kernel ad supported? Ruby? Nginx? There are companies that make products which utilize Python or are greatly involved in the Python ecosystem, and those companies contribute back to the ecosystem because it serves their purposes. Likewise with the Linux Kernel, Ruby, Nginx, Python, and many other excellent pieces of open source software. Would you dilute the reference protocols and implementations for these products by diluting key parts of their functionality with advertising in a form that is essentially malware?

No. You wouldn't do that because it would compromise the trust of your core users and ultimately result in negative momentum. You wouldn't do that because ultimately, it's poor product management. Healthy businesses that operate with a division between the open source and closed source areas are well trodden territories, and one of the easiest ways to kill the healthy business line that depends on the open source product's mindshare is to dilute it. This is what you're not addressing, and based on your arguments, it may be something that you don't understand. What Mozilla Corp just did was a bafflingly poor product management decision. It was an experiment with little reward and what appears to be high risk. Time will tell. They may have lost sight of the the need to add value first in order to rake in profits long term, and the need for that to sometimes take longer, more expensive paths to result in the most lucrative circuit.

This, of course, is something that the original core contributors to all of these projects understood quite well. They produced software, but they were first and foremost constructing protocols. Protocols can be created in purely informational theoretic terms and be released into the wild, and upon critical mass of mindshare adoption, operate self-sustainably in their current form. It is certainly the case that money and other resources can scale up the rate of development and scope of these protocols as well as the ecosystem around it, but it is not a requirement. The organization and labor that construct these protocols are motivated by a variety of motivations, but often times, one of the core motivations is the desire to mutate the way that things flow in societal infrastructures by improving them. When attempting to build one of these mutations, focusing on profitability prematurely is ironically one of the easiest ways to doom it, or precluding it from ever occurring. It will get you stuck in local minima and distract you from executing correctly. Why did Google beat every other search engine? They figured out how to do search properly, better than every other competitors.

Mozilla Corporation (if it can) needs to figure out how to do the browser properly, better than every other one of its competitors. If not, it will slowly fade into obsolescence as superior forks or competitors better at its core functionality supplant it.

Re: Mozilla: Ad on Firefox’s new tab page was just another experiment

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would happily pay a flat $50/month for an ad-free experience where content producers got paid for each of their pages I visit.

I, too, would pay $1000 for unlimited use of any supercar I want.

If you're near a city that can sustain such a business, you can in fact rent fancy cars you'd never otherwise be able to afford.
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