Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

oregonlive.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 309 posts

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#261

Post by abduhl »

ip26 wrote: post #237
4thaccount wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A professional engineer has to pass a pretty rigorous test that takes every bit of 8 hours for most folks. I studied for hundreds of hours for mine (not kidding) and it took me two tries to pass. I know great engineers who are trying for the sixth time. Getting an engineering degree is really hard at most colleges. Passing the Fundamentals of Engineering exam is also challenging, but a joke compared to the P.E. exam.…

He was not engaging in professional practice, it was civic practice. You don't need an economics degree to comment on a tax measure.

But if someone commenting on a tax measure claimed to be an accountant then you’d certainly think they were a licensed CPA, wouldn’t you?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#262

Post by erikpukinskis »

yc-kraln wrote: post #252
ThenAsNow wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (BTW, I get seriously uptight at all the web designers who like to call themselves engineers :-) ) I feel similarly to you, but would extend it to cover most software development, period. With feet in multiple traditional engineering disciplines, I don't see the majority of software development as coming close to the bar of engineering (though some certainly does). And I don't mean that in the sense of licensure, n…

My computer engineering degree included Chemistry, Physics, Mechanical Engineering (statics/dynamics) Multivariate Calculus, Differential Equations / Linear Algebra, as well as Humanities (writing, history, art) in addition to software, hardware, electronics... Am I not coming close to the "bar of engineering"? You can boil engineering down (maybe a bit much, but bear with me) to: plan, execute, measure, adjust. The…

None of the things you listed would seem to indicate anything about your ability to employ a rigorous approach to software development equivalent to what a credentialed civil engineer does with roads.

A civil engineer is not credentialed because they took physics and DiffEq. They are that because their field has defined a body of knowledge and rigor that has been shown to adequately protect the public within a narrow band of services.

I am not aware of any such effort anywhere in software, which is why many engineers consider the whole notion of “software engineering” to be a farce.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#263

Post by erikpukinskis »

Shivetya wrote: post #230
eigenvector wrote: post #32

As a licensed professional engineer, I find the effort exerted by various state and provincial licensing bodies to regulate the use of the term 'engineer' a bit tiresome. Yes, it's important to regulate the practice of engineering, but unlike some other types of professionals engineers rarely if ever offer their services to Joe Public. It's not like we have guys putting up billboards on the side of the highway advert…

occupational licensing and the laws around them are what keep many people who go to prison without a good means to obtain a well paying job. it also keeps many in lower income strata because even simple jobs are overly regulated protecting entrenched concerns; read : hair and nail care and even interior decorating in some jurisdictions. yet there are defenders who will pop up with any threat to the licensing by citin…

I think the laws are fine as long as they govern the words you use to describe your services and not the services themselves.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#264

Post by zozbot123 »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #262
yc-kraln wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My computer engineering degree included Chemistry, Physics, Mechanical Engineering (statics/dynamics) Multivariate Calculus, Differential Equations / Linear Algebra, as well as Humanities (writing, history, art) in addition to software, hardware, electronics... Am I not coming close to the "bar of engineering"? You can boil engineering down (maybe a bit much, but bear with me) to: plan, execute, measure, adjust. The…

None of the things you listed would seem to indicate anything about your ability to employ a rigorous approach to software development equivalent to what a credentialed civil engineer does with roads. A civil engineer is not credentialed because they took physics and DiffEq. They are that because their field has defined a body of knowledge and rigor that has been shown to adequately protect the public within a narrow…

> I am not aware of any such effort anywhere in software, which is why many engineers consider the whole notion of “software engineering” to be a farce.

The Rust Evangelism Strikeforce is working hard to change that.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#265

Post by toast0 »

wand3r wrote: post #33
woah wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Dr. Dre have a medical PhD?

Yes actually. He did his residency under the esteemed Dr. Pepper at Mt. Sinai

You'll note that the Dr in Dr Pepper is not an abbreviation and therefore doesn't have a period.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#266

Post by daveFNbuck »

chrisseaton wrote: post #203
grecy wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I studied a degree called "Software Engineering" and am acredited by the Australian Institute of Engineers (the first, and AFAIK, only, Software degree that is certified). Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering".

> Working in Canada where my degree was not certified If they have an engineering conference in Canada, and a notable engineering expert comes from abroad to speak but isn't from a Canadian certified school (perhaps they're from a British one instead) do they get uptight about that as well? At some point they must accept that non-Canadian-certified people can be engineers as well?

The issue here is probably more that software engineering isn't considered to be engineering in Canada. If a notable historian from a country where they call historians engineers came to the country to speak, people probably would get uptight about that.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#267

Post by blihp »

foepys wrote: post #250
ThenAsNow wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (BTW, I get seriously uptight at all the web designers who like to call themselves engineers :-) ) I feel similarly to you, but would extend it to cover most software development, period. With feet in multiple traditional engineering disciplines, I don't see the majority of software development as coming close to the bar of engineering (though some certainly does). And I don't mean that in the sense of licensure, n…

I am seriously curious, what is the difference between e.g. an mechanical engineer designing a new machine and a person designing a new software system that is intended to be maintained for at least 10 years by various teams? Is there some sort of bonus just because it's physical vs virtual?

I think it's the rigor of the field. The general expectation is that a mechanical, or any other type of engineer, will bring to the table some minimum set of skills and knowledge that other engineers in the same field possess. This is not true in computing since so many people entered the field from so many vectors. Not to mention there's still a hell of a lot of snake oil being peddled because there's so much money in the field of computing.

For example: one can't be certain that someone with a Computer Science degree even knows how to program or has any other specific knowledge or skills. Or that someone supposedly with X years of experience with Y understands Y at all vs. just repeating tasks learned by rote. Or that someone who went to a Z bootcamp can actually do anything useful with/in Z. Maybe someday we'll get there, but it's still a long ways off.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#268

Post by gowld »

stochastic_monk wrote: post #94
ghaff wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two of the three fields you mention are not paid especially well on average.

All three have median salaries of 6 figures.

"Pilot" does not have median salary of 6 figures.

"Commercial jet pilot" has median salary of 6 figures. That is not an entry-level pilot position.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#269

Post by gowld »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #161
AmericanChopper wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but you could go back and forth on that all day. Look at the list of incidents involving at least 50 deaths on wikipedia[0], comparing aviation and road, there a difference, but it’s not an enormous difference. My point is that I don’t think there’s a strong correlation between risk to public safety, and remuneration, nor between training and remuneration. There’ll likely be some correlation for both, but yo…

Training? How long does it take to become a (professional) pilot? I bet it's longer than to get your chauffeur's license... but not so much longer to account for the pay difference. It occurs to me, though, that vehicle cost might be a factor. How much does a new semi cost? $100,000, maybe? How about a new 737? $80,000,000. Does that influence pay?

It's not just training time. It's also skill and intelligence, which flying requires more of than driving.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#270

Post by gowld »

rootusrootus wrote: post #126
SamReidHughes wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It could help develop accountability and best engineering practices. Have you ever read books about that? There are multiple layers of awful ideas about software engineering, touted as best practice. It's a cesspit of idiocy. Too many morons are going around trying to say things about engineering practices for it to be possible to make a useful accreditation. It would also end up being a negative hiring signal, lik…

A master's degree is a negative hiring signal? When did that start?

It started when students noticed which of their peers are terminal-masters candidates, and when professionals noticed which of their peers went back to school as a path to promotion.

In the software field, people are expected to develop skills without handholding through school.

This applies mostly to professional software masters than to pure comouter science masters or masters of engineering.

There's also the the xenephobic angle that a USA masters degree is a common way for a foreign national (from a foreign undergraduate school) to get access to the USA job market.

Post reply on HN