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Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
141–150 of 309 posts
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#142As a licensed professional engineer, I find the effort exerted by various state and provincial licensing bodies to regulate the use of the term 'engineer' a bit tiresome. Yes, it's important to regulate the practice of engineering, but unlike some other types of professionals engineers rarely if ever offer their services to Joe Public. It's not like we have guys putting up billboards on the side of the highway advert…
Last time I had a discussion about this my put was that licensing is an archaic way of doing things. In short the idea is we trust the PE's signature that everything is copacetic. In more modern fields like automotive, aerospace and software engineering that idea is laughable. Everything is about process, audit and testing.
So, how do you do that sort of testing on one-off construction? What is the audit checking against? Where does the process come from?
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_T._Pepper I only googled that out of a sense that if someone was willing to be so dismissive off the cuff then perhaps, just perhaps, there actually really was a real Dr. Pepper and that I might find him and prove that person wrong. Well... I didn't plan on learning that today.
Hoisted, or perhaps better to say, informed by your own petard were we?
I think I hoisted us both.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#144As a licensed professional engineer, I find the effort exerted by various state and provincial licensing bodies to regulate the use of the term 'engineer' a bit tiresome. Yes, it's important to regulate the practice of engineering, but unlike some other types of professionals engineers rarely if ever offer their services to Joe Public. It's not like we have guys putting up billboards on the side of the highway advert…
"As a licensed professional engineer, I ..." He is an engineer as far as I am concerned (and time served as well as his quali): Jarlstrom, who holds a bachelors of science degree in engineering from Sweden
A professional engineer has to pass a pretty rigorous test that takes every bit of 8 hours for most folks. I studied for hundreds of hours for mine (not kidding) and it took me two tries to pass. I know great engineers who are trying for the sixth time. Getting an engineering degree is really hard at most colleges. Passing the Fundamentals of Engineering exam is also challenging, but a joke compared to the P.E. exam. A professional engineer has both passed that test and worked for usually four years in industry according to most state laws and can testify in court as an expert. The commenter you quoted likely isn't being snarky, but trying to point that out. If Sweden has a completely different set of requirements, I would similarly not be able to practice in the same professional context there.
This was rotten of Oregon, but there are generally laws like this to make sure everyone knows what to expect from an engineer. Of course it looks rediculous that a Swedish engineer wasn't allowed to point out a flawed system (I agree it is a violation of free speech), but they also can't take his background at face value, just like someone with a medical degree from Cuba probably can't practice medicine in the United States without going through licensing and taking classes to make sure the degrees truly are equivalent.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
With all due respect to the folks who drive 18-wheelers, flying a passenger aircraft and operating a truck require very different levels of training. Relatively small mistakes in operating an aircraft can have very serious consequences for large numbers of passengers. Example: crew reacted incorrectly to autopilot problems following pitot tube obstruction by ice on AF 447 and stalled the aircraft, leading to death of…
I don’t think you’ll find a strict correlation between level of training required, and salaries. There’s plenty of highly trained people with low salaries. I’d also be willing to bet that trucking accidents kill more people than airline ones.
Maybe so. But one truck accident kills far fewer people than one airline accident. So each individual pilot has considerably more responsibility than each individual truck driver.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is that there are a small, specialized clique of Engineers who have professional certification, and a huge population of engineers who don't have this certification and are not required to have it. The boundary between the two groups is fuzzy and a bit contentious, with each side seeking to expand their domain. There's no such confusion when it comes to the other professions listed, no huge gray area wher…
I have a BSEE (and masters) and I have passed the engineering intern test. I do use my engineering knowledge for my day job and my business card says “engineer”. I would consider getting a PE but I literally know nobody with a PE and I cannot find a good reason to get one other than maybe advertising.
If you ever want to go into power distribution as an EE you'll need to stamp plans and projects and won't be promoted passed a certain point without it. I'd recommend you try to find someone at your work with one (you have to work under a P.E.) and take the test as soon as you can.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
Read the article: "Unlike an 'M.D.' or 'certified public accountant,' there is no fixed meaning to the title 'engineer,' but many different types of engineers, the judge found."
Professional Engineer has a fixed meaning though, and it's possible legislation would be updated to specifically reference PE language in statute. https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe > To become licensed, engineers must complete a four-year college degree, work under a Professional Engineer for at least four years, pass two intensive competency exams and earn a license from their state's licensure board.…
Yes, also addressed in the article and the judge's decision:
"She directed the state to remove the definition of 'engineer,' from its state law and administrative rules, and simply restrict who can consider themselves a 'professional engineer,' or a 'registered professional engineer.'"
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#148This is interesting to me because in Ontario where I reside, I cannot call myself an engineer. The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. But my employer is in Massachusetts, where I can be called an engineer. So I'm not sure if my business cards can get me in trouble here.
The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. What do they call people who drive trains in Ontario?
Qualified Locomotive Engineer, this is a federally regulated title in that context as well.
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-87-150/f...
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#149As a licensed professional engineer, I find the effort exerted by various state and provincial licensing bodies to regulate the use of the term 'engineer' a bit tiresome. Yes, it's important to regulate the practice of engineering, but unlike some other types of professionals engineers rarely if ever offer their services to Joe Public. It's not like we have guys putting up billboards on the side of the highway advert…
Aren't you forgetting liability? It's not exactly in the PEs interest to sign off on shoddy work as they can be found liable if it does hit the fan. And the consequences could be pretty severe.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#150Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves a doctor, too?
Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves an alien? a gnome? a horse? If you can call yourself a horse, then it makes sense that you can also call yourself a doctor.
Well, they can call themselves whatever gender they want. Why not species? If I self-identify as a hobbit, who are you to question it?