Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech • Hacker News Board

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#31

Post by sneakernets » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 10:51 PM UTC

ibash wrote: post #5

“Jarlstrom’s interest stemmed from a red-light-running ticket his wife received in 2013. He spent three years analyzing the method for calculating the duration of a yellow light and found that the formula failed to account for drivers who must slow down to make a legal turn.” Quacks like a duck.

That may be the most "engineer" thing I've read in a while. :-)

I wouldn't be surprised if he uncovered something involving the timing of traffic lights that the state engineers knew about, but never did anything about it since it increased the chance of driver violations ever so slightly, and, therefore, more sources of revenue.

It's not cynical if it's true, you know.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#32

Post by eigenvector » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 10:52 PM UTC

As a licensed professional engineer, I find the effort exerted by various state and provincial licensing bodies to regulate the use of the term 'engineer' a bit tiresome. Yes, it's important to regulate the practice of engineering, but unlike some other types of professionals engineers rarely if ever offer their services to Joe Public. It's not like we have guys putting up billboards on the side of the highway advertising their services as an engineer.

In every context where the services of a PE / PEng (Canada) are truly required, no one will be relying on that person's email signature or business card, they will be asking for the relevant documents to be signed and sealed.

Licensing boards would do well to devote more effort to regulating large engineering firms which often play fast and loose with the rules, hiring cheaper, unlicensed people to do most of their work and then have one or two PEs seal all of it with minimal review.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#33

Post by wand3r » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 10:52 PM UTC

woah wrote: post #16

klipt wrote: post #4

Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves a doctor, too?

Does Dr. Dre have a medical PhD?

Yes actually. He did his residency under the esteemed Dr. Pepper at Mt. Sinai

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#34

Post by will_brown » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 10:52 PM UTC

klipt wrote: post #4

Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves a doctor, too?

There is a very famous legal case dubbed “Dr. Feelgood”.

The guy would approach women in apartment parking lots, tell them they have a disease and he could “cure” them with sex, because he has been injected with the cure. He successfully convinced and had sex with multiple women, and he actually charged them $750 to boot.

As you might expect one of the charges was fraud...turns out men’s right to lie to women’s out being a doctor to get them into bed is constitutionally protected free speech.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#35

Post by sneakernets » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 10:52 PM UTC

tree_of_item wrote: post #24

ibash wrote: post #5

“Jarlstrom’s interest stemmed from a red-light-running ticket his wife received in 2013. He spent three years analyzing the method for calculating the duration of a yellow light and found that the formula failed to account for drivers who must slow down to make a legal turn.” Quacks like a duck.

Actually it struck me as really tenacious of him and I'd be willing to believe he has some merit. I'd like to see the data.

I read the comments on the article, and looks like some of his colleagues posted on there saying he had embarrassed some good ol' boys, and the good Lord knows we can't have that, now can we?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#36

Post by alphakilo » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 10:52 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #20

Waterluvian wrote: post #2

This is interesting to me because in Ontario where I reside, I cannot call myself an engineer. The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. But my employer is in Massachusetts, where I can be called an engineer. So I'm not sure if my business cards can get me in trouble here.

The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. What do they call people who drive trains in Ontario?

Anything without engineering. Engineers in Ontario have a licencing like becoming a lawyer or doctor. All people studying in Canada are in programs that are accredited by the CAEB.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#37

Post by miker64 » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 10:54 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #25

I would argue that occupational licensing is extremely overdone, even in the riskier professions like medicine and dentistry. Here is a recent article from the NYT about the horrible situation of cosmetology licensing: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/business/cosmetology-scho... I'm not saying we don't need occupational licensing whatsoever. But there is no reason someone can't learn to drill a cavity in 6 months…

I think you underestimate the knowledge and training to do dental work safely.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#38

Post by newnewpdro » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 10:54 PM UTC

klipt wrote: post #4

Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves a doctor, too?

Chiropractors already leverage the powerful marketing of a Dr. prefix without having a PhD in medicine.

It's incredibly annoying. I have relatives who have become completely swindled by this crap and regurgitate unscientific nonsense that their "Dr. Salesman" chiropractor prescribed. Blood-type diets, essential oils, overpriced transparencies to hide in rooms for their calming energy. Whenever I visit home I have to listen to this shit littered with Dr. as if it's legitimizing.

FML

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#39

Post by will4274 » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 10:56 PM UTC

MetalGuru wrote: post #23

“The record before this Court demonstrates that the Board has repeatedly targeted individuals for using the title ‘engineer’ in non-commercial contexts, including core political speech such as campaigning for public office and advocacy against a local ballot initiative.” Although I agree with the sentiment of the article, I do think it would be deceptive for a politician to claim to be an engineer if they hadn’t done…

> I do think it would be deceptive for a politician to claim to be an engineer if they hadn’t done any engineering

I agree, but this is an argument for newspapers, magazines, and websites to make, not for the state licensing board. Regulating the speech of politicians campaiging for office undermines the democratic process, as it allows those in power to control the speech of those with less power trying to unseat them.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#40

Post by TheSoftwareGuy » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 10:57 PM UTC

c3534l wrote: post #7

I know in the US you can call yourself a real estate agent, but not a Realtor unless you're part of the National Association of Realtors. This seems just to me: an organization shouldn't be allowed to steal a word from the English language like "engineer." But if you want to create your own brand and maintain its quality, you're more than welcome to invent a novel term and do that. But simply claiming by fiat that yo…

I don’t think that’s what is happening here. The suit seems to be predicated on him calling himself an engineer