Symbolics Genera - The Best Software Environment Available • Hacker News Board

Re: Symbolics Genera - The Best Software Environment Available

#21

Post by tangus » Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 4:50 PM UTC

lispm wrote: post #20

sedachv wrote: post #5

Lisp Machines are something that you think is really cool when you first learn about them, then you come to the realization that pining for them is a waste of time. I've had a flash of inspiration recently and have been thinking about Lisp Machines a lot in the past three weeks. But first, a digression. There's an important lesson to be learned about why Symbolics failed. I think Richard Gabriel came to the completel…

Steven Levy basically repeats Stallman propaganda. Others have different memories about that time. Also not only Stallman promoted free software in that time. For example the Common Lisp community had extreme benefit from what was done at CMU. CMUCL/Spice Lisp was released as public domain software and has been used widely in derived implementations, like SBCL or even commercial software. There were several other pro…

Doesn't that reinforce his point? CMUCL & SBCL were released as free software and are still around. Genera isn't.

Re: Symbolics Genera - The Best Software Environment Available

#22

Post by joe_bleau » Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 5:08 PM UTC

daeken wrote: post #4

ScottBurson wrote: post #3

I have a Symbolics XL1200 that still works (at least, it worked the last time I turned it on, which was a few years ago). I'd be happy to demo it at YC sometime. It was a fun environment to work in. Although the hardware was very slow by modern standards, the environment was designed to maximize hacker productivity. For example, you didn't have to run a program under the debugger to debug it -- the debugger was alway…

I don't know that I'd agree that it wouldn't survive outside of research. In recent years, there's been a huge push for pure-managed operating systems, where everything runs in one address space and depends on the compiler to ensure security and reliability. While no such systems are in practice (to my knowledge), the potential is incredible. We'll see how it pans out in the next few years. (Full disclosure: I starte…

What about IBM's OS/400? http://users.snip.net/~gbooker/AS400/ibm.htm

Re: Symbolics Genera - The Best Software Environment Available

#23

Post by sedachv » Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 5:10 PM UTC

lispm wrote: post #20

sedachv wrote: post #5

Lisp Machines are something that you think is really cool when you first learn about them, then you come to the realization that pining for them is a waste of time. I've had a flash of inspiration recently and have been thinking about Lisp Machines a lot in the past three weeks. But first, a digression. There's an important lesson to be learned about why Symbolics failed. I think Richard Gabriel came to the completel…

Steven Levy basically repeats Stallman propaganda. Others have different memories about that time. Also not only Stallman promoted free software in that time. For example the Common Lisp community had extreme benefit from what was done at CMU. CMUCL/Spice Lisp was released as public domain software and has been used widely in derived implementations, like SBCL or even commercial software. There were several other pro…

I'm not making him a saint. Stallman completely abandoned the Lisp community at that point - he won't even talk about Lisp now (at least he told me to go away last time I tried talking to him about it).

What I'm saying is Stallman is right about the value of Free Software. CMUCL and BSD basically got released the way they did because they were university research projects that failed to get commercialized. Stallman is really the person that came out and said Free Software should be a priority in and of itself and not an accident. That totally changed the way you can think about software, and you shouldn't discount that.

Another thing I respect about Stallman is that he tends to be right about longer-term trends. I don't bet against him anymore.

Re: Symbolics Genera - The Best Software Environment Available

#24

Post by lispm » Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 5:10 PM UTC

tangus wrote: post #21

lispm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steven Levy basically repeats Stallman propaganda. Others have different memories about that time. Also not only Stallman promoted free software in that time. For example the Common Lisp community had extreme benefit from what was done at CMU. CMUCL/Spice Lisp was released as public domain software and has been used widely in derived implementations, like SBCL or even commercial software. There were several other pro…

Doesn't that reinforce his point? CMUCL & SBCL were released as free software and are still around. Genera isn't.

I haven't said anything against his point. It is just that claiming that Stallman was the only one 'getting free software' is bullshit. He did a lot, but in the Lisp community there were many others which promote(d) free software.

Also Stallman did promote Free software, but his promotion of Lisp was mostly limited to Emacs Lisp. There was an attempt with Guile, but that was mostly it. He had worked with the Lisp Machine, but once he was out, that topic was finished.

Anyway, I find a few points are right and several others not. That Symbolics would have not gone out of business if Genera would have been free software and portable is speculation. It is neither necessary nor sufficient. For example Franz is still around, though Allegro CL is not free software. There are lots of free software / portable Lisp implementations which are as dead as Genera, or more than dead. I agree that it might help, but not more.

I agree with the following: portability and 'free' can help with survival.

I don't think adding C to Lisp is of much help. The mismatch is huge. There are two options: 1) repeating the design of the past (with the same problems and maybe slight improved. There has been lots of talk and little action. It's difficult because we don't have the hackers with knowledge and time for that. 2) doing a new design which gets rid of the limitations of past designs (single user, single image, no security, ...). That's even more difficult.

Re: Symbolics Genera - The Best Software Environment Available

#25

Post by hga » Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 5:12 PM UTC

tangus wrote: post #21

lispm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steven Levy basically repeats Stallman propaganda. Others have different memories about that time. Also not only Stallman promoted free software in that time. For example the Common Lisp community had extreme benefit from what was done at CMU. CMUCL/Spice Lisp was released as public domain software and has been used widely in derived implementations, like SBCL or even commercial software. There were several other pro…

Doesn't that reinforce his point? CMUCL & SBCL were released as free software and are still around. Genera isn't.

We shouldn't cherry pick only the examples which support our position. E.g. Allegro Common Lisp has traditionally been about as unfree as possible (e.g. $$$ required to distribute solutions to your customers (for the Lisp runtime)) and it's still around. LispWorks is three years older and is still around.

Also, would the MIT Lisp Machine system or Genera have gotten as good as they did as fast as they did without outside funding (government and VC respectively)?

Or look at the failure of GNU to produce a kernel.

My general point here is that all this is much more complicated that a simple "free survives, unfree doesn't" ... although I'd need a few good examples of unfree dying to round out it out (good as in perhaps "was big, then totally failed").

Re: Symbolics Genera - The Best Software Environment Available

#26

Post by hga » Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 5:16 PM UTC

lispm wrote: post #24

tangus wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't that reinforce his point? CMUCL & SBCL were released as free software and are still around. Genera isn't.

I haven't said anything against his point. It is just that claiming that Stallman was the only one 'getting free software' is bullshit. He did a lot, but in the Lisp community there were many others which promote(d) free software. Also Stallman did promote Free software, but his promotion of Lisp was mostly limited to Emacs Lisp. There was an attempt with Guile, but that was mostly it. He had worked with the Lisp Mac…

As a means to the end of getting a working system done sooner rather than later, and most especially supporting a zillion device drivers that will never be ported to a Lisp, C in Lisp may make sense.

Re: Symbolics Genera - The Best Software Environment Available

#27

Post by hga » Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 5:20 PM UTC

ScottBurson wrote: post #13

sedachv wrote: post #5

Lisp Machines are something that you think is really cool when you first learn about them, then you come to the realization that pining for them is a waste of time. I've had a flash of inspiration recently and have been thinking about Lisp Machines a lot in the past three weeks. But first, a digression. There's an important lesson to be learned about why Symbolics failed. I think Richard Gabriel came to the completel…

BTW I have a different theory about why Lisp Machines failed in the market. Symbolics and LMI were spoiled by the high prices the machines originally commanded (under the influence of the AI bubble and DoD money) and didn't realize how aggressive they needed to be about making them cheap. When the Sun 4/110 came out, it was about 1/5 the price of a comparable Lisp Machine, and faster. Had LispMs been price-competitiv…

Indeed; whatever the mistakes these companies made (also include the TI Explorer), they were zapped first by 32 bit microprocessors (a sustaining technology, but not one adopted quickly enough by Symbolics (plus they picked a bad initial platform to put their microprocessor on)) and then PCs (a classic disruptive technology).

Re: Symbolics Genera - The Best Software Environment Available

#28

Post by hga » Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 5:28 PM UTC

joe_bleau wrote: post #22

daeken wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that I'd agree that it wouldn't survive outside of research. In recent years, there's been a huge push for pure-managed operating systems, where everything runs in one address space and depends on the compiler to ensure security and reliability. While no such systems are in practice (to my knowledge), the potential is incredible. We'll see how it pans out in the next few years. (Full disclosure: I starte…

What about IBM's OS/400? http://users.snip.net/~gbooker/AS400/ibm.htm

Indeed, OS/400 is just wonderfully advanced under the hood. Get one of the cheap used copies of this book for a lot more: http://www.amazon.com/Inside-AS-400-Frank-Soltis/dp/18824196...

Re: Symbolics Genera - The Best Software Environment Available

#29

Post by _19qg » Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 5:29 PM UTC

sedachv wrote: post #23

lispm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steven Levy basically repeats Stallman propaganda. Others have different memories about that time. Also not only Stallman promoted free software in that time. For example the Common Lisp community had extreme benefit from what was done at CMU. CMUCL/Spice Lisp was released as public domain software and has been used widely in derived implementations, like SBCL or even commercial software. There were several other pro…

I'm not making him a saint. Stallman completely abandoned the Lisp community at that point - he won't even talk about Lisp now (at least he told me to go away last time I tried talking to him about it). What I'm saying is Stallman is right about the value of Free Software. CMUCL and BSD basically got released the way they did because they were university research projects that failed to get commercialized. Stallman i…

CMUCL was a research project and DARPA financed. Commercializing it was not the main goal. CMUCL got funding for many years (until 1994), when it was open source already. CMU promoted 'free' software in a huge way in many projects. They also provided the CMU AI repository which collected all available university research software in AI, including language implementations.

It was not the Stallman version of 'free' software with a viral license.

Most people fail to understand the role of DARPA funding. Stallman worked in a DARPA (= military) lab - the MIT AI Lab. He worked basically on new software infrastructure for the military. They funded it to get intelligent software for guided missiles, logistics systems, missile defense systems, simulators, training systems, ... The largest batch of Lisp Machines went into the Star Wars project. Promotion of 'free software' was not a DARPA priority, but DARPA was interested to get these tools widely used in Universities. DARPA financed a batch of a hundred Lisp Machines (IIRC) for example and gave them to universities. At the same time they promoted competition, to have more than one source for the technology - so LMI and TI also got money.

Stallman has his definition of 'free software', which shows in the GPL license. Others have their idea of free software which shows in the use of 'Public Domain' as the license. To me the Public Domain Lisps were always more important than the GPLed ones.

Re: Symbolics Genera - The Best Software Environment Available

#30

Post by lispm » Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 5:31 PM UTC

hga wrote: post #26

lispm wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't said anything against his point. It is just that claiming that Stallman was the only one 'getting free software' is bullshit. He did a lot, but in the Lisp community there were many others which promote(d) free software. Also Stallman did promote Free software, but his promotion of Lisp was mostly limited to Emacs Lisp. There was an attempt with Guile, but that was mostly it. He had worked with the Lisp Mac…

As a means to the end of getting a working system done sooner rather than later, and most especially supporting a zillion device drivers that will never be ported to a Lisp, C in Lisp may make sense.

Only if you can integrate it in a useful way and reuse C code from other places. Which I doubt is possible.