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Button offers instant gratification for those plagued by airplane noise

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Button offers instant gratification for those plagued by airplane noise

#71
The problem is IMHO not the airplane noise. As many others have written, the actual noise has gone down over the decades.

The real problem is a perceived lack of democratic participation / a government that cares about its people. The interviewed people actually said so: "It makes you feel like you can make a difference", compared to manually filling out complex forms.

This actually is valid also for other countries: in Munich, there is a constant battle for the expansion of the airport with a new runway. For now, the project is set on hold, but who knows how the situation will look like in 5 years w/ the then-new government in Bavaria. This was also decided above the heads of the affected population (who would have lost their homes or be affected by massive increases in noise) without including them, and politicians didn't do flying f..k and tell the affected people that the state cares for them, their well-being or whatever. For new rail tracks or those where usage exploded over decades, people had to sue the rail company for installation of noise-protection.

Personal bet: Complaints about "NIMBY", endless and expensive judicial battles (as are hinted in the article), noise, playing kids, anything would go down to decent manageable levels if governments would care to meaningfully involve affected residents and give them the feeling that their voice matters for the government. The other way is to continue as usual and watch them fall to various radicals and their "the state doesn't care about you, only about " message.

Re: Button offers instant gratification for those plagued by airplane noise

#72
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are they supposed to do? They can't move the airport and if they change the routing then someone else will complain.

Sometimes you wonder if they could possible move the route a little to the side. I live on an island close to Seattle, and airplains flying from California will fly straight over the island, almost like it is on purpose. You wonder why they couldn't move the route a little to the west or a little to the east and fly over the sea instead. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASA1041

FlightAware on mobile isn’t letting me zoom in to see which island you’re on. There’s a few pilots on HN; we can help you look it up. It’s probably not on purpose as in “haha let’s fly over this guy’s house” but more likely to that it keeps traffic in the busy Seattle area flowing smoothly. You can certainly write to the local Flight Standards District Office and ask them to consider using new waypoints and procedures, or ask them for an official explanation.

Re: Button offers instant gratification for those plagued by airplane noise

#73
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sats have wild accuracy shifts and depend heavily on the plane being fully operational. Ultimately what you end up with sats anyway is list of waypoints, not anything dynamic, and it can be done with radar as well.

Then why are airports trending towards satellite navigation? Do they not realize something that you do?

No, they do realize exactly that, which is why quite often the paths didn't change as much as they could and why aviation community tends to rebuke ideas like "remove SSR and PSR because GPS and Mode S + ADS-B is enough".

Sats provide good "happy path" when everything is ok and allow greater density. But approach and departure routes are going to be designed for safety as well, including when those features fail.

Re: Button offers instant gratification for those plagued by airplane noise

#74

A small part of my job (air force) is taking noise complaints. I find their rate has absolutely nothing to do with actual noise. It is all about time of day. A rainy tuesday afternoon: we can land on a roof without complaint from the owners. But on a sunny saturday evening, suddenly the same flight pattern we have flown for years without issue starts my phone ringing. Standard, honest, responses: 1) Civilian air traf…

> It is all about time of day. A rainy tuesday afternoon: we can land on a roof without complaint from the owners. But on a sunny saturday evening, suddenly the same flight pattern we have flown for years without issue starts my phone ringing.

That one is easy: rainy afternoons, people are inside and have their windows closed, which provides a decent level of noise isolation... vs sunny evenings, people are outside, eating, playing, of course they'll hear everything in their sight and beyond.

Re: Button offers instant gratification for those plagued by airplane noise

#75
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sats have wild accuracy shifts and depend heavily on the plane being fully operational. Ultimately what you end up with sats anyway is list of waypoints, not anything dynamic, and it can be done with radar as well.

> Sats have wild accuracy shifts and depend heavily on the plane being fully operational. Who is routinely flying planes that aren't fully operational?

In-flight accidents are a thing.

GPS and the like provide an efficient "happy path" and a horrible failure mode, which is why there's strong opposition to the removal of radars "because ADS-B/Mode S is good enough"

Re: Button offers instant gratification for those plagued by airplane noise

#76

I am curious why this wasn't just an app. What's the point of having a physical button other than for aesthetic gratification? If you had an app, it'd be more than just one click, but it'd only be like three "clicks" or steps. You'd have to unlock your phone, open the app, and click a button. Three steps instead of one. Not sure if that warrants a physical button. Edit: I get why pressing a physical button is therape…

It seems like a lot of users are clicking that button dozens of times a day. I suppose they might consider the extra convenience worth it, particularly at night.

Re: Button offers instant gratification for those plagued by airplane noise

#77

Just wondering if these devices are only issued to people who had houses in that area before the airport was built. IMO if you knowingly purchase a residence under a flight path, you lose any privilege of complaining about the noise. Modern aviation is already far quieter, and there are plenty of regulations in place to minimise the noise footprint (e.g. modern fanjet engines are far quieter than the older turbojets,…

Flight paths change all the time.

Re: Button offers instant gratification for those plagued by airplane noise

#79

Just wondering if these devices are only issued to people who had houses in that area before the airport was built. IMO if you knowingly purchase a residence under a flight path, you lose any privilege of complaining about the noise. Modern aviation is already far quieter, and there are plenty of regulations in place to minimise the noise footprint (e.g. modern fanjet engines are far quieter than the older turbojets,…

As detailed in the article, due to the FAA's efforts to modernize the air traffic control system, planes have different flight paths than they used to, and communities near airports which used to not experience noise problems, do now. Still, airports are too important and it is virtually impossible to build new ones. The needs of the airports and the airlines should take precedence over those of homeowners. Homeowners can move. Airports can not.

Re: Button offers instant gratification for those plagued by airplane noise

#80

Just wondering if these devices are only issued to people who had houses in that area before the airport was built. IMO if you knowingly purchase a residence under a flight path, you lose any privilege of complaining about the noise. Modern aviation is already far quieter, and there are plenty of regulations in place to minimise the noise footprint (e.g. modern fanjet engines are far quieter than the older turbojets,…

> if you knowingly purchase a residence under a flight path, you lose any privilege of complaining about the noise.

Honestly, this line really grinds my gears. Let me explain:

First, people don't always know. Actually I think people frequently don't know. It's not like estate/rental agents are known for their outstanding honesty.

Also remember that the loudness and frequency of air travel can change a lot. An airplane every few hours and none during the night? That's probably okay. An airplane every 15 minutes for 24/7? Probably not.

But the most important point is that it's a bit of a discussion stopper; in the end, no one really wants to live under a flight path, and we all have to live on the same planet. I'm not saying we can always accommodate everyone, but dismissing people's real daily struggles with this out-of-hand is probably not great, especially as there are many important details missing.

I had a noise problem at my previous apartment. I lived about 20 metres from a church repurposed as a "community and arts centre". Turns out, that this is code for "we will do rave parties where we literally pump out 100dB of bass until 5am every weekend during the winter season". I wouldn't have minded if it was the occasional thing, or if it wasn't literally 100dB (that was their limit, which by their own admission they also breached sometimes), or if it wasn't every weekend. I complained but they were very dismissive about it. It's one of the reasons I ended up moving.

My point is, there are many factors: loudness, frequency, time of day, etc. In a lot of airports the total loudness may be less (I'll take your word for it), but the frequency and time of day has definitely increased in many cases, as people are flying much more.

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