How the Valley treats experienced people • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#411

Post by KKKKkkkk1 » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 9:07 PM UTC

QuantumGood wrote: post #374

markbnj wrote: post #334

I kind of feel like the author is referring to Zuckerberg's famous comment about young people being smarter. I don't remember the exact quote, but it was suitably shocking and stupid so it's a candidate anyway. The thing I like about Rachel's take on this is that she gets right to the key thing: regardless of what field you're in, or how you spend your time, the vast majority of us are going to be neither horrible fa…

Zuckerberg said this to attendees at the Y Combinator Startup School event at Stanford in late March, 2007 [1] "I want to stress the importance of being young and technical," he stated, adding that successful start-ups should only employ young people with technical expertise. (Zuckerberg also apparently missed the class on employment and discrimination law.) "Young people are just smarter," he said, with a straight f…

Chess is something computers do better than humans anyway. Is that really a useful metric?

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#412

Post by pdimitar » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 9:07 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #106

christophilus wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm guessing companies assumed he'd leave in 3-5 years and didn't want to invest the time. 3-5 years is a pretty long stretch in this industry. The longest I’ve ever held a job is just barely 5 years. Most tech employers— at least the smart ones— know the average bounce rate in the industry is high. Older employees tend to value stability, for various reasons. So I don’t buy your argument. If there’s a reluctance t…

>3-5 years is a pretty long stretch in this industry. That's a rather SV-centric view. Otherwise 5-10 years (or longer) is quite normal, including in tech. At many companies, a bunch of 3 year stints for a job candidate is something of a red flag.

> That's a rather SV-centric view.

Trust me, it isn't. It's valid for every organization I've ever been in or consulted for (15+). I am in Eastern Europe and spent 9-10 years in offices, and the other 7 after that it has been all remote. I've seen a lot of companies for both consulting and normal 5-to-9 work.

While the reasons why most people don't stick around above 2-3 years are many and varied (and some are frankly quite stupid) to me it does seem to be the norm.

But I'll readily admit we all live in our own bubbles and confirmation biases. So I'm just sharing an additional anecdote here.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#413

Post by unclebucknasty » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 9:14 PM UTC

wutbrodo wrote: post #379

QuantumGood wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zuckerberg said this to attendees at the Y Combinator Startup School event at Stanford in late March, 2007 [1] "I want to stress the importance of being young and technical," he stated, adding that successful start-ups should only employ young people with technical expertise. (Zuckerberg also apparently missed the class on employment and discrimination law.) "Young people are just smarter," he said, with a straight f…

EDIT: parent comment edited it from 2017 to 2007. That makes a lot more sense Yeesh, in 2017? Zuckerberg was really young when he get vaulted into power and fame, so I've always been a little more sympathetic than most to his various foot-in-mouth moments[1], particularly in the past. But Jesus, 2017 was _last year_: how is he such a slow study at this? [1] I should not that I have some pretty severe disagreements wi…

Zuckerberg is who he is--the same guy who, in college, called his fellow students "dumb f---s" for trusting him with their data.

People want to excuse that as youth, but he wasn't an 8 year-old; he was an adult, with many of his morals formed. A statement like that is not indicative of immaturity, but insight into character--the way he views himself and other people--and it also reveals a willingness to use dishonesty to take advantage of people for his own gain.

In fact, his entire business model is built on the same "dumb f---s for trusting him" attitude. He has repeatedly monetized the violation of that trust and continues to do so. It's mind-boggling that people continue to allow him to get away with it.

This "gaffe" is not evidence of him being a "slow study", but borne of the same attitude he displayed in college and on many occasions since--one of superiority and condescension to other individuals and groups.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#414

Post by manicdee » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 9:18 PM UTC

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #409

markbnj wrote: post #334

I kind of feel like the author is referring to Zuckerberg's famous comment about young people being smarter. I don't remember the exact quote, but it was suitably shocking and stupid so it's a candidate anyway. The thing I like about Rachel's take on this is that she gets right to the key thing: regardless of what field you're in, or how you spend your time, the vast majority of us are going to be neither horrible fa…

Given that this is something Zuckerberg said 12 years ago, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and hope that he doesn't think that way anymore. (The benefits of experience!)

Given the wisdom of experience he doesn’t announce that anymore.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#415

Post by refurb » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 9:19 PM UTC

tacon wrote: post #376

taude wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The questions being asked have nothing to do with solving the types of problems that my experience is indicative of, or of the teams/projects/products I've lead. Nor are they types of questions that even measure for engineer work experience and how they approach solving the types of real world problems that 10 minutes of white boarding a bit counting and funky array manipulations alg won't show. They are questions th…

I haven't interviewed in a long time, though I read interviewing advice from Nick Corcodilos at AskTheHeadhunter and it seems to make sense. The basic idea is to take control of the interview and start doing the work right there in the interview, just like if you were on your first day of the job. Yes, this takes all sorts of social skills and preparation, but it sure would make you stand out from the crowd of softwa…

This is actually pretty good advice and I applied it as well. Go into an interview prepared for the expected questions (experience, behavioral, etc), but also go in with some well thought out opinions on the day to day work. I’ve found it makes a big difference even if your opinions are on the naive side since you don’t have insider knowledge.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#416

Post by pdimitar » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #93

danohuiginn wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possible, but decreasingly likely. The US is now one of the countries where your success in life is most fully determined by your family background. e.g. it's in the bottom third of the OECD for income mobility, and the absolute worst in the OECD for how much your family background determines your educational success https://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobi... https://www.oecd.org/centrodemexico/m…

These statistics all measure the wrong things. Let me tell you a story of two families. My step-dad was thrust into a parenting role over his siblings, a sister and a brother at an early age. The brother died early, in a train accident. My step-dad married my mother and they're still together, over 20 years later. His sister is on her second marriage. My aunt's family is constantly teetering on the edge of poverty, h…

A very strange aside in my eyes. You almost don't touch the topic at hand.

Sure you can claw your way out by being financially wise. I just did that this year after life hit me really hard, several times, at my weakest hours. Took me 7 months to recover and I am pretty sure I know exactly what you mean by it.

Still, this piques. Yes you can have a decent way of life -- food, own home (increasingly rare), internet, a few vacations a year perhaps. But outside of that? Real middle class? Call me biased but I am not seeing it anywhere. Even the people who believe to live a middle-class life cannot afford more than 2-3 months of unpaid vacation (or a hiatus).

I absolutely positively cannot spend 2-3 years doing only the hobby projects I have in mind without caring about money. I simply am not at the level of a CEO pay + bonuses that enable such a lifestyle, and won't ever be if I continue to be a programmer for hire.

To me "middle class" means "able to freely switch jobs or professions without any financial pressure", combined with "able to enjoy leisure time as much as they like". But again, maybe I am describing the "rich life" and not the middle class. Perhaps we use different terms?

(Eating but also living the life is something money can enable -- but I agree that money alone cannot teach you that.)

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#417

Post by pdimitar » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 9:27 PM UTC

lolc wrote: post #32

WalterBright wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about working hard, and never was. It's about working smart. And people make their own luck. You can't get lucky if you're not in the game swinging. I've known plenty of people who just sat at their desks, doing as little as possible, waiting for the boss to direct them, reading hackernews(!), watching the clock till they could go home. They were never going to get lucky. Then there are the ones who are alwa…

I was already lucky: My side-projects were chosen based on interest and benefits. I don't need more money.

Have you considered getting in touch with people who have interesting ideas about side projects and enable them to live well while pursuing them?

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#418

Post by Animats » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 9:33 PM UTC

shmat wrote: post #68

Sometimes you don't make enough money to retire early from a combination of bad luck and poor financial decisions. In my career, I followed a pattern of going to a company just a bit too late to get the really low priced options. I've ended up with dozens of former co-workers who are multimillionaires. I had a family and was (in hindsight) too conservative about when I went to a company. I also was a "paper" milliona…

You have to be fairly lucky. My history:

* Startup in Midwestern city. Company never grew much, pivoted several times, still in business selling storage products. If I'd stayed with them, I would have had a long, boring career. One guy I knew did stay there and had a long, boring career.

* Heavy industrial company in Detroit. Acquired by a bigger company long after I left, Detroit plant closed.

* Time-sharing startup company in greater NYC area. Went bust. Technology worked fine, sales not so much. Left 3 weeks before shutdown.

* Time-sharing startup company in Silicon Valley. More successful. Acquired by bigger company after I left. Time-sharing was clearly on the way out. Time to leave that industry.

* Big aerospace company R&D operation. That's where I got into theory. Split into several units years after I left, some acquired by other companies.

* Small startup that got big. Cashed out.

* Careful about spending, reached retirement age in good shape.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#419

Post by pdimitar » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 9:36 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #256

arconis987 wrote: post #86

I’m so grateful to have worked with older colleagues who did not care about using the framework du jour. Influenced by their experience, we made some unorthodox tech choices as a web startup, including the choice to use C++ and Lisp-like languages heavily, and it worked out beautifully. From them, I learned that it is more important to ship simple, fast code than to contort your system to use the latest tech fads whe…

It's always entertaining when you do the simplest thing that works, it works, and then you get to watch someone struggling for months to replace it because it was too simple and not buzzwordy enough.

I am not gonna be ashamed to admit that working like your parent commenter said is a good way to ensure you won't get fired out of the blue as well (since what you created is not easily upgradeable or replaceable).

But in any case that's a side effect of being competent and is not a specially crafted tactic -- at least during my career.

And finally, we have to fight hard against the philosophy that all programmers should be easily replaceable cogs in the big machine. That's an impossible dream of the businessmen but they still won't give up on it.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#420

Post by WalterBright » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 9:40 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #39

WalterBright wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about working hard, and never was. It's about working smart. And people make their own luck. You can't get lucky if you're not in the game swinging. I've known plenty of people who just sat at their desks, doing as little as possible, waiting for the boss to direct them, reading hackernews(!), watching the clock till they could go home. They were never going to get lucky. Then there are the ones who are alwa…

There’s nothing wrong with being a salaried person, there’s nothing actually wrong with trying to make a decent buck so that you can have a roof on top of your head and a computer with access to the internet so you can read HN daily. I work so that I can read HN (among other myriad things that I enjoy doing), I don’t read HN so that I can get more money so that I can do... I don’t know what exactly should I be doing…

> There’s nothing wrong with being a salaried person

I didn't say there was. I was talking about people who wanted more than that.