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Doctors ask engineers to spend more time in the hospital before building apps

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Re: Doctors ask engineers to spend more time in the hospital before building apps

#181

Post by assblaster »

m0zg wrote: post #92
assblaster wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But it's still happening, starting with EKG and ultrasound. Whole-body ultrasound? How would an AI understand how to interpret images with low signal:noise? Who will be performing the actual ultrasound image capture? Who will be ordering the imaging tests? How will an AI understand a patient that can't meaningfully interact with an AI? What's the utility of "EKG" [sic] for diagnosing non-cardiac problems? Or, do you…

Sure, I realize there's much that the current tech does not cover. But you gotta start somewhere, and through extremely wide deployment tens of thousands of lives will be saved, and important feedback will be collected to improve products. $400 watch that does a dozen other things and that the user would buy even if it didn't have ECG is not "expensive diagnostics". This is where things are at, whether you like it or…

>This is where things are at, whether you like it or not, especially for the working poor who can't afford to fork over a few hundred dollars every time something feels "off".

But you think they'll fork over hundreds of dollars for misguided tech toys that won't even address their actual medical problem?

>Hook up sensors to wearables, catch diseases early and at a massive scale, cure or treat them before they get extremely expensive.

Which diseases are you talking about? Hypertension? Diabetes? Obesity? Smoking? You don't need fancy medical toys to diagnose these problems, yet they're responsible for most morbidity.

Do you think a medical toy will somehow detect cancer? How exactly do you think this would work? Someone feels "off" one day so they plug in a "device"... ECG? Ultrasound? Urine analysis?

>To me it looks like it's the only way out of the ripoff "healthcare" scheme we're in right now.

The ripoff isn't from physicians practicing medicine, it's from outsiders who interfere with the patient-physician relationship to get their slice of the pie, ie insurance companies, healthcare MBAs, device manufacturers, pharmaceutical companies. You think tech will replace physicians, but it's obvious you're completely misguided regarding the actual source of problems in healthcare.

Re: Doctors ask engineers to spend more time in the hospital before building apps

#182

Post by DoreenMichele »

mgamache wrote: post #180
DoreenMichele wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will probably not result in large disruptive positive changes. Those will have to come from outside the current process. Rest assured that anything that makes a significant impact on health will cause people to completely freak out if it hasn't been vetted via the current medical system, even though this vetting process kills a lot of therapies that people then lament that they wish they had access to.

Balancing safety vs progress is tricky. Additionally, people's perception of risk is also really bad so the resulting choices are sub-optimal.

I'm well aware of that. I have a form of cystic fibrosis. I used to be on multiple maintenance drugs. I currently manage my condition with diet and lifestyle and no longer take medication.

I also no longer belong to any CF lists. It's too much drama. I was constantly attacked and, among other things, accused of irresponsibly endangering lives for trying to talk to people about what I found helpful.

Re: Doctors ask engineers to spend more time in the hospital before building apps

#183

Post by assblaster »

m0zg wrote: post #177
whymauri wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smart/Self-serving diagnostic tools occasionally fail for legal feasibility reasons before they are adopted by the market. Consider a smart heart monitoring system, maybe connected to a canary that will alert a healthcare professional or first responders if something is amiss. Absolutely nobody wants to be liable for misdiagnosing acute symptoms, which may lead to death or false positives. It doesn't even have to be…

Sure, there will be cases where your device will say "I'm at a loss here, go see a doctor". The point is, right now the majority of (very expensive!) doctor visits are a total waste of everyone's time, and your money. There's no rational reason why I need to drive to a lab for bloodwork or simple diagnostics, and have a human do it: a robot at a local convenience store should be able to do the job. There's no rationa…

>The point is, right now the majority of (very expensive!) doctor visits are a total waste of everyone's time, and your money.

Honestly, what are you talking about? A doctor's visit costs between $0 and $150, depending on insurance/government, and it is a focused encounter to determine the source of a medical complaint and a most likely effective treatment for that problem.

You want to stick a one-lead ECG on someone and expect that it's supposed to spit out a diagnosis, or heaven forbid, a recommendation to see a doctor who can actually figure out how to diagnose and treat the patient.

Your statement in fact points to the uselessness of this proposed medical device if it can't actually figure out what's going on and instead will send you to an actual expert (physician). How reliable would it be for everything else it "diagnoses"?

Re: Doctors ask engineers to spend more time in the hospital before building apps

#184

Post by assblaster »

m0zg wrote: post #177
whymauri wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smart/Self-serving diagnostic tools occasionally fail for legal feasibility reasons before they are adopted by the market. Consider a smart heart monitoring system, maybe connected to a canary that will alert a healthcare professional or first responders if something is amiss. Absolutely nobody wants to be liable for misdiagnosing acute symptoms, which may lead to death or false positives. It doesn't even have to be…

Sure, there will be cases where your device will say "I'm at a loss here, go see a doctor". The point is, right now the majority of (very expensive!) doctor visits are a total waste of everyone's time, and your money. There's no rational reason why I need to drive to a lab for bloodwork or simple diagnostics, and have a human do it: a robot at a local convenience store should be able to do the job. There's no rationa…

>Did you know that medical errors are the third leading cause of death in the US, right after heart attack and cancer? Seems to me that "human" doctors are also a dangerous proposition.

Where's your citation?

Here's what the CDC says about leading causes of death:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/hus/index.htm

Heart disease 257.6 (2000) 168.5 (2015) 165.5 (2016) Cancer 199.6 (2000) 158.5 (2015) 155.8 (2016) Chronic lower respiratory diseases 44.2 (2000) 41.6 (2015) 40.6 (2016) Unintentional injuries 34.9 (2000) 43.2 (2015) 47.4 (2016) Stroke 60.9 (2000) 37.6 (2015) 37.3 (2016) Alzheimer's disease 18.1 (2000) 29.4 (2015) 30.3 (2016) Diabetes 25.0 (2000) 21.3 (2015) 21.0 (2016) Influenza and pneumonia 23.7 (2000) 15.2 (2015) 13.5 (2016) Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis 13.5 (2000) 13.4 (2015) 13.1 (2016) Suicide 10.4 (2000) 13.3 (2015) 13.5 (2016)

Re: Doctors ask engineers to spend more time in the hospital before building apps

#185

Post by m0zg »

assblaster wrote: post #184
m0zg wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, there will be cases where your device will say "I'm at a loss here, go see a doctor". The point is, right now the majority of (very expensive!) doctor visits are a total waste of everyone's time, and your money. There's no rational reason why I need to drive to a lab for bloodwork or simple diagnostics, and have a human do it: a robot at a local convenience store should be able to do the job. There's no rationa…

>Did you know that medical errors are the third leading cause of death in the US, right after heart attack and cancer? Seems to me that "human" doctors are also a dangerous proposition. Where's your citation? Here's what the CDC says about leading causes of death: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/hus/index.htm Heart disease 257.6 (2000) 168.5 (2015) 165.5 (2016) Cancer 199.6 (2000) 158.5 (2015) 155.8 (2016) Chronic lower res…

Notice that medical errors are conspicuously absent from your list. Super convenient: if you don't count 'em, it looks like nobody died.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/05/03/4766361...

Re: Doctors ask engineers to spend more time in the hospital before building apps

#186

Post by m0zg »

assblaster wrote: post #183
m0zg wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, there will be cases where your device will say "I'm at a loss here, go see a doctor". The point is, right now the majority of (very expensive!) doctor visits are a total waste of everyone's time, and your money. There's no rational reason why I need to drive to a lab for bloodwork or simple diagnostics, and have a human do it: a robot at a local convenience store should be able to do the job. There's no rationa…

>The point is, right now the majority of (very expensive!) doctor visits are a total waste of everyone's time, and your money. Honestly, what are you talking about? A doctor's visit costs between $0 and $150, depending on insurance/government, and it is a focused encounter to determine the source of a medical complaint and a most likely effective treatment for that problem. You want to stick a one-lead ECG on someone…

>> A doctor's visit costs between $0 and $150

And who do you think covers the remaining $150-infinity?

>> You want to stick a one-lead ECG

You're not arguing in good faith. Goodbye.

Re: Doctors ask engineers to spend more time in the hospital before building apps

#187

Post by cjsawyer »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #119
dmix wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, how is this relevant to what the OP comment posted? I don't follow...

We already have a healthcare system within the US where billing seems to mostly not happen. So, presumably, it isn't completely alien and foreign and something America would need to steal from elsewhere.

Ha! Try that scenario again with cheap or no insurance. That’s the reality for many

Re: Doctors ask engineers to spend more time in the hospital before building apps

#188

Post by p_l »

KineticLensman wrote: post #129
gaius wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of abuse seems hilarious. What abuse? That people might visit their local doctor more frequently? That's a good thing! In the UK A&E is flooded with people with minor ailments that could have been treated at home with a first aid kit, or people who are just drunk. The system is definitely taken for granted. People even call ambulances for a ride to an appointment, not even an emergency. Source: once spent…

Also UK. Some 'abuse' of A&E happens because people cannot alway get access to a local surgery as opposed to driving to a nearby hospital, especially at weekends.

I also recall that a lot of local clinics one would normally go to end up closing thanks to lower funding... so, let's fund more walk-in clinics around?

Re: Doctors ask engineers to spend more time in the hospital before building apps

#189

Post by DoreenMichele »

cjsawyer wrote: post #187
DoreenMichele wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already have a healthcare system within the US where billing seems to mostly not happen. So, presumably, it isn't completely alien and foreign and something America would need to steal from elsewhere.

Ha! Try that scenario again with cheap or no insurance. That’s the reality for many

I'm well aware that's the reality for many. My awareness of that is the reason I commented on the fact that the US already has one very well-developed and well-established medical system that works much like socialized medicine: The military medical system.

We don't need to look to other countries at all to try to figure out how that's done. It's done right here on American soil every single day for military members, military retirees and their dependents.

All we need to do is figure out how to expand on that existing system. And perhaps one first step would be to change the rules such that anyone who serves in the military gets medical benefits for life, even if they don't stay long enough to retire and get all those other benefits.

It's never sat well with me that it is possible to be a veteran and have no benefits at all. Giving all veterans medical benefits would begin expanding coverage in the US under a system where billing is the exception, not the rule.

I hate the civilian US medical care system and it's fucked up coverage. I've been a military dependent basically my entire life. My experience of medical care is vastly different from that of most Americans and it's a crying shame we don't do more for our citizens in that regard.

Re: Doctors ask engineers to spend more time in the hospital before building apps

#190

Post by kiriakasis »

mac01021 wrote: post #118
olefoo wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are that strong a believer in the evils of socialism do you avoid Freeways, airports and the internet? All of which depend on public subsidy.

1. Noone said anything about the evils of socialism. 2. Why do you expect people to refrain from using services they've been forced to pay for?

Generally because stating it as "being forced to pay" often comes with a hint of it being wrong.

So the question could have been: do you think we should have free/socialized streets/hospitals? If not how do you think they are different?

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