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The math’s not pretty on digital advertising’s future revenues? (2017)

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Re: The math’s not pretty on digital advertising’s future revenues? (2017)

#151
post #4

This is an open secret among techonomists and others in the arcane space of digital campaign measurement.[0][1- preprint] Digital advertising has a lot of smoke and mirrors. There is _some_ incrementality, but it seems oversold. [0] https://academic.oup.com/qje/article-abstract/130/4/1941/191... [1] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery.cfm/SSRN_ID2498290_cod...

I dispute what you are saying, as someone who has studied that Lewis & Rao paper in detail. Advertising academia is pretty much just as mixed up as advertising in practice.

Here is another paper worth reading on it [0] (which cites Lewis & Rao), but provides fairly clear evidence of a distribution of outcomes of digital ad campaigns with a lot of probability mass on the side of positive lift.

The place where issues come in via Lewis & Rao is on the side of poor statistical methodology, particularly in the calculation of necessary statistical power.

But those discussions are all stuck in bad frequentist estimation techniques, and in industry there are practitioners using Bayesian methods, for example such as Gelman’s proposed “type sign” and “type magnitude” errors, with well-calibrated priors that treat the possibility of negative lift seriously.

I strongly disagree with the idea that “ads don’t work” is an “open secret” like you say. Rather, “measuring ads is extremely complicated” is the known conclusion, and marketers are just coming around to the fact that you have to invest in extremely advanced statistical methods to even know if ads are working, let alone to optimize them for an audience, especially inclusive of things like audience privacy, opt-out policies, paychological well being and so on.

[0]: https://marketing.wharton.upenn.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/...

Re: The math’s not pretty on digital advertising’s future revenues? (2017)

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's exactly the opposite. They, with data, identify niche markets that don't currently have programming, and create programming to fill those voids.

Man. If they “don’t currently have programming,” then there is a straight up lack of data. I get what you’re saying, but I think you miss the point, which is that currently - contrary to superficial thought - data offers little creative power. Identifying underserved domains through data or a lack thereof is not the same as “using data to create art.”

It's possible to infer what people would watch from what they currently watch. That's exactly what every recommender system ever does. Netflix says "hey, this thing would be highly rated by some users if it existed, but it doesn't". Then they go and make it.

I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make this into, or what you're talking about when you say data. But it seems like you're on such a completely different wavelength from either me or anyone else in this conversation that your arguments just don't make sense. You're having a totally different discussion where the words you use mean different things. I think it's because you're trying to defend the human creativity of the artists and creators who make the media, but that's wholly irrelevant to the discussion.

The creatives can all be creative, data is used to choose which creatives to promote or use. On youtube, this is "the algorithm" that promotes different people. For netflix, the data is used to choose which projects to fund. The funded ones are created, the unfunded ones aren't. Or maybe its "we need a screenplay that includes these 3 themes". Either way, data is guiding the creativity.

But all of that is irrelevant. No one ever claimed anything about “using data to create art.” The claim, you objected to was that companies like Google and Facebook have an advantage over Disney because they can use data to create content people will like. There's nothing necessarily creative about that, but its still an advantage over a traditional company like Disney.

Your objection was that

>it currently has almost no value for creating new shows.

Which is demonstrably wrong. Netflix does use data to pick themes, topics, and demographics to target with new material. I don't work there, so I don't know exactly how it works, but it doesn't particularly matter. Data does have value when choosing what new shows to create. This could be entirely independent of art or creativity.

As an aside,

>Some guy in Australia who ignores data

I'm not clear why you think he ignores data. The Primitive Technology guy is a computer scientist by trade, his channel appears to do many things that are what conventional good channels do (varying Youtube SEO things), and his content is a strong fit for the current youtube algorithm. He's likely "data driven" in the same way that many top 250-1000 youtube channels are: he does some things to increase subscribers, has a patreon, etc.

Re: The math’s not pretty on digital advertising’s future revenues? (2017)

#153
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's no sign that this model could work at scale for a large corporation. Why should it? Most of the content people are now enjoying day to day isn't coming from large corporations. What we're witnessing now is the infancy of a shift away from the centralization of entertainment started by the industrial revolution (with access to printing presses, radio broadcasting, etc being relatively limited by economies of…

> Most of the content people are now enjoying day to day isn't coming from large corporations. Taking that at face value, it's still the Google vs Apple argument. "The content people are enjoying" is not nearly as valuable as "the content people are willing to pay for." It's easy to get someone to watch free stuff. And in terms of total revenue, I'm skeptical that quantity of free content + ads can beat quality paid…

> "Separately, the democratization of media doesn't mean we've improved the net quality. For every Groklaw PJ, there's 1,000 poorly-informed rants."

Maybe part of the reason you're struggling with this concept is because your focus is too narrow. Look beyond political/legal commentary, where small creators are competing directly against international media corporations that provide content in the same category.

Look beyond that, because most of what's out there doesn't fall into that category. There is a LONG tail of independent content being produced that has no competition at all from corporate media. Name any narrow interest or hobby and you can almost certainly find independent creators online that are collectively producing far more content in that topic every week than the corporate media has produced in the past century. Take for instance woodworking. To be sure, there have been TV shows about woodworking, The New Yankee Workshop (Norm Abram) and The Woodwright's Shop (Roy Underhill), both on PBS (which is probably notable, can we expect Disney to produce and commercialize a woodworking TV show?), are very notable excellent examples. But there is so much more content on youtube, the woodworking content on youtube is more diverse, and those independent online creators typically have a closer relationship with their viewers.

Woodworking is a generous example because it's actually a case where traditional media can marginally compete. But change the topic slightly and traditional media leaves you completely out in the cold. What if instead of cutting and joining wood, you're interested in metal? Where is the PBS show for hobby metal working? Would Disney ever give Adam Booth his own machining show? I don't think so.

This is a small list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Arts_and_crafts_telev...

Re: The math’s not pretty on digital advertising’s future revenues? (2017)

#154
post #140
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article was from a little over a year ago, and detailed what Google and Facebook were producing. I think your ignorance of their offerings (and I couldn't name anything either!) says what we need to know about their success.

I'm sorry, but by "this article" you mean ... ?

The submitted link. "Oct 16, 2017"

Re: The math’s not pretty on digital advertising’s future revenues? (2017)

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's no sign that this model could work at scale for a large corporation. Why should it? Most of the content people are now enjoying day to day isn't coming from large corporations. What we're witnessing now is the infancy of a shift away from the centralization of entertainment started by the industrial revolution (with access to printing presses, radio broadcasting, etc being relatively limited by economies of…

Well, we are discussing if Google and Facebook's digital ad revenues will be able to continue to rise. If Google is going to show ads on a content creator's channel because they map to the demographic I want to advertise to, what is stopping me from just cutting out Google and paying the content creator directly? That way I can exercise more fine-grained control over what my ads don't show up next to, the content cre…

>what is stopping me from just cutting out Google and paying the content creator directly?

Nothing per-se, but if you talk to content creators they'll tell you that they prefer Patreon or youtube monetization or similar systems for at least one simple reason: their per-month income is more predictable, which provides them with a sense of financial stability. For many creators this isn't a full-time job, but rather a time intensive hobby that brings in enough money to pay for itself with maybe a little extra. But feeling confident that their expenses will be covered next month provides them with a necessary sense of security to keep doing what they do. If they were to rely on people mailing them cheques every month, many people would simply forget and creators could never be confident of approximately how much money they'll have next month. Patreon and youtube monetization don't provide any guarantees about future income, but in practice creators find that it typically doesn't change that much month from month.

This doesn't mean that youtube monetization or patreon have a permanent monopoly on the payment system for independent creators. Far from it actually, the fact that Patreon broke into the scene previously dominated by youtube monetization demonstrates that if your system provides relative stability to creators, they will be willing to adopt it.

We are still in the infancy of this social transformation, but already we see a clear picture starting to emerge of what creators and their viewers require to make it work.

Re: The math’s not pretty on digital advertising’s future revenues? (2017)

#156
post #65
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. The problem, for Google, is they lose market share in the platform market: https://i2.wp.com/www.cordcuttersnews.com/wp-content/uploads... And my guess is that Amazon will win this, because like you say, it's better. But also - Since Amazon controls all the buyer's journey, it can make more money per each ad. Which equals better content. And in any case, FireTv is a loss leader for Amazon. Hard to compe…

Here is a question to ponder about: is Google loosing market share or is the market expanding?

I suspect it’s growing more than google losing, but this chart is almost useless as each stack is not labeled.

Sony - is this PS4 or Sony smart TV (which is android as well)?

Re: The math’s not pretty on digital advertising’s future revenues? (2017)

#157
post #36

This article completely missed the forest for the trees - the battle for TV is not just a battle for content, it’s a battle for the delivery medium itself! Think about it - how was TV delivered to you before? There are over the air broadcast, satellite, cable/settop, and what’s been called OTT. Except, more and more settop boxes are Rokus, Android TV-based and even some Apple TVs (Verizon 5G was offering those in tes…

This is true. The problem, for Google, is they lose market share in the platform market: https://i2.wp.com/www.cordcuttersnews.com/wp-content/uploads... And my guess is that Amazon will win this, because like you say, it's better. But also - Since Amazon controls all the buyer's journey, it can make more money per each ad. Which equals better content. And in any case, FireTv is a loss leader for Amazon. Hard to compe…

Amazon is only truly dominant in US. In EU there is much more of a mixed bag and APAC is a completely different story. They also do not white label as far as I know, so partnerships with cable operators are still mostly for Roku and Google.

I’m purposefully discounting TiVo from the future list, as I have not seen them to be a strong OTT platform player in the last few years.

Re: The math’s not pretty on digital advertising’s future revenues? (2017)

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't care enough about the content creator to download another app just to watch their content. The HTML5 video tag exists - you don't need "another app", though you might need another video host. There's very little inherent difference between YT and any other popular, large site. They host videos? Video is not that much more bulky than other website content anyway. (At least if you avoid gold-plating the service…

This is such bullshit! YouTube’s video streaming infra is a masterpiece of engineering and magnitudes of order better than a vanilla streaming setup! You might not notice because you live in a place with great internet...but most people don’t!

To provide people with poor internet connections with effective access to videos, youtube transcodes videos to various qualities. That's not cheap, but neither is it magic.

Re: The math’s not pretty on digital advertising’s future revenues? (2017)

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man. If they “don’t currently have programming,” then there is a straight up lack of data. I get what you’re saying, but I think you miss the point, which is that currently - contrary to superficial thought - data offers little creative power. Identifying underserved domains through data or a lack thereof is not the same as “using data to create art.”

It's possible to infer what people would watch from what they currently watch. That's exactly what every recommender system ever does. Netflix says "hey, this thing would be highly rated by some users if it existed, but it doesn't". Then they go and make it. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make this into, or what you're talking about when you say data. But it seems like you're on such a completely differe…

Again, your argument continues to validate one of the essential points I make: that these data sets are most useful for identifying existing media that “works” and then scaling/marketing it.

Here is where I think we disagree: I don’t believe that Netflix’s ability (or Google’s, for that matter) to predict new markets is substantively improved by their data set. I understand that that might be a radical perspective among data-driven decision-makers, but I stand by it. Yes, the data set is extremely useful for scaling/marketing an asset (as we have both highlighted), but frankly datasets don’t yet know what the next hot thing will be, and there is a lack of statistical evidence to suggest otherwise (ie Netflix has produced, what, 1-10k shows? That doesn’t necessarily provide much statistical reliability, even if they have a high rate of success, which they don’t).

Furthermore, Netflix picking themes, topics, etc as you suggest to drive successful production runs contrary to their most successful strategy so far, which is to cast a wide net by producing highly diverse content at low costs then scaling what works. While they use data to deduce which shows are successful, the production of those shows occurred with little to no data-driven direction beyond the obvious understanding that a wide net catches more fish.

When a company has a combination of access to scale and quality data, they quickly outpace and overwhelm their competitors. Netflix hasn’t quite accomplished this, suggesting that their dataset isn’t as magical as you imply.

Lastly, their dataset isn’t as private as you might believe, either. To view it as a golden egg that will exclusively produce quality content just for them is naive.

Re: The math’s not pretty on digital advertising’s future revenues? (2017)

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Half of the world's population still isn't online so there's plenty of room for growth in the future too. The offline half doesn’t have that much money to spend, right? Making some assumptions and approximating, would it be wrong to say that potential gains from bringing new people online ≈ global GDP growth? Currently that’s in the low single digits.

Low single digits is fine when you're among the biggest companies on the planet. We're talking about 10s of billions in profit. Amazon is now getting into the space and is a strong contender to become #3 biggest player.

Low single digit growth does not justify a high PE ratio.
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