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How AlphaZero Mastered Its Games

newyorker.com

41–50 of 80 posts

Re: How AlphaZero Mastered Its Games

#41

> An expert human player is an expert precisely because her mind automatically identifies ... The "Patronizing 'Her'" Almost invariably, when the author decides to use the patronizing 'her' instead of the gender-neutral 'they' it's written by a man.

'They' isn't used as a singular pronoun in many style guides, including the New Yorker's but nice try.

Re: How AlphaZero Mastered Its Games

#42

God what a well written article! I don't have much to say on the subject, but this was pure joy to read, it's crazy good. Clear, engaging, to the point, making a difficult subject accessible without dumbing it down, no fluff or unnecessary side stories, just awesomeness.

The only gripe I had with the writing was the completely unnecessary injection of gender pronoun controversy. I highly recommend the AlphaGo movie as well, it does a great job documenting the psychology of professional Go in the world of AI.

what gender pronoun controversy? did we read the same article?

Re: How AlphaZero Mastered Its Games

#43
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been a rematch recently vs Stockfish, with a couple of hundred games. AlphaZero won 155-6! [0] There are fascinating videos with grandmasters commentating on some of the games. They're played in an exciting, sacrificial, swashbuckling style, nothing like any other top computer engine, and it seems that may affect the play of top (human) players for the better. e.g. see Matthew Sadler on chess24 https://www.…

A lot of the moves most praised by GMs are seen as the only moves in the position by Stockfish 9/10. I think there's a huge amount of cognitive dissonance going on, so that people can label AlphaZero's play more 'human'. Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if AlphaZero lines have existed at the top of the game for some time. Would be a no brainer for someone to have made Google an offer after the first paper.

So if Alpha zero trashes Stockfish 10 will you be saying, Oh Stockfish 11 sees these as only positions.. Please.

Re: How AlphaZero Mastered Its Games

#44
Awesome article. Does anyone know how to begin applying the AlphaZero techniques to games where information is NOT perfect? I'm trying to apply it to Scrabble. There hasn't been much AI research in this game and right now the best AI just uses brute force Monte Carlo with a flawed evaluation function (which doesn't take into account the state of the board at all, just points and tiles remaining on the opponent's rack). It's still good enough to beat top human experts about half the time, but I want to make something better.

Is it impossible to apply to these types of games? Every time I read about AlphaZero the articles mention that the techniques are meant for games of perfect information.

Re: How AlphaZero Mastered Its Games

#45
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was the first paper. Second paper they played fair even giving stockfish a 10 to 1 advantage on same hardware as tcec uses.

You can still run the games past the exact commit of Stockfish they used and it finds blunders in its own play, so it still feels like there's a lack of transparency. But I don't think anyone strongly believes AlphaZero isn't the best at this point.

Like which move? I wonder why stockfish developers do not claim any of this?

Re: How AlphaZero Mastered Its Games

#46

James put together a really nice summary of the ideas and the projects! It was almost a year ago that lc0 was launched, since then the community (led by Alexander Lyashuk, author of the current engine) has taken it to a totally different level. Follow along at http://lczero.org ! Gcp has also done an amazing job with Leela Zero, with a very active community on the Go side. http://zero.sjeng.org Of course, DeepMind re…

I strongly suspect alphazero is easily beatable, once you have your hands on it. This is just from experience that most neural network style systems are weak against adversarial opponents who understand their internals. Of course I can't be sure, because Google refuses to give out anyone access to alphazero, or a network trained with it. Personally, that gives me more confidence they know there are significant exploi…

I guess if you understand the internal of a NN you can just write a paper to publish it.

Generating the right noise was proven to be successful against NNs (https://blog.openai.com/adversarial-example-research/) but I am not sure how could you apply that to this context.

Re: How AlphaZero Mastered Its Games

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only gripe I had with the writing was the completely unnecessary injection of gender pronoun controversy. I highly recommend the AlphaGo movie as well, it does a great job documenting the psychology of professional Go in the world of AI.

what gender pronoun controversy? did we read the same article?

>An expert human player is an expert precisely because her mind automatically identifies the essential parts of the tree and focusses its attention there.

Instead of using gender neutral pronoun like "they", the author used a feminine pronoun.

Re: How AlphaZero Mastered Its Games

#48
The article is very well written but that sentence felt a bit wierd:

> Before there could be acceptance, there was depression. “I want to apologize for being so powerless,” he said in a press conference.

Lee Sedol was clearly upset, especially after the first two matches, but I think that apology was more out of politeness than depression, really.

Re: How AlphaZero Mastered Its Games

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what gender pronoun controversy? did we read the same article?

>An expert human player is an expert precisely because her mind automatically identifies the essential parts of the tree and focusses its attention there. Instead of using gender neutral pronoun like "they", the author used a feminine pronoun.

This is nitpicking. I like using singular "they" and I'm guessing it will win, but this isn't settled yet and some editors make different choices.

Re: How AlphaZero Mastered Its Games

#50
post #45
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can still run the games past the exact commit of Stockfish they used and it finds blunders in its own play, so it still feels like there's a lack of transparency. But I don't think anyone strongly believes AlphaZero isn't the best at this point.

Like which move? I wonder why stockfish developers do not claim any of this?

glinscott said "We need a public exhibition match to settle the score, ideally with some GM commentary." above.

As for the GM side, Nakamura basically said the same.

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