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Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

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Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding that a full sync in Bitcoin means something different than a full sync on Ethereum. Bitcoin's database is modeled on UTXO ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unspent_transaction_output ) therefore all clients need to validate all transactions from genesis to calculate final balances. Meanwhile, Ethereum is account based and state is global, and to determine the balances you only need to check the merkl…

You say “check merkle proof”, how do you know what it’s supposed to be? Trust somebody gives you the right hash? There is no difference between BTC’s UTXO model and Ethereum’s account model in this sense - both are aggregate structures and to have full certainty the aggregate you’re looking at is correct you have to run through all the transactions. To speedup sync in BTC it is assumed that blocks older than some amo…

> how do you know what it’s supposed to be

The information is in the block headers.

> In ETH instead it is common to just download the result and trust it’s valid

Nope. You still have to download all the block headers from block 0 and check if they are valid, including the PoW and other hashes.. The blocks are basically tamper proof as in Bitcoin (but can also be vulnerable to a 51% attack)

Then that's where it all diverges from Bitcoin: in Ethereum, there are three merkle trees: one for the state, one for transactions and one for the transaction results (receipts). The roots of these trees are in the blocks, once you have these, you can verify a particular value of, say, a state value, without the need to verify each and every other value, by walking through the tree and doing a merkle proof. There's plenty of info on the web explaining how it works if you look it up, eg. Search for "ethereum state trie"

As for syncing, recently it improved a lot. I did it a few times last month with Geth on an old machine just to test it out. Synced within 2 days, a big improvement over the previous versions of Geth. And yes, it got all the blocks from 0 to current. Blocks by themselves are very light.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two are very different. Knowing consensus rules I can verify the chain and if I notice something fishy - I go back to figuring out if I’m being attacked. If instead I simply accept what chain I should follow - I have no guarantees I wasn’t attacked. With PoS it’s even worse - I can generate million different chains for zero cost and you have no objective measure to tell which one of them is more genuine and more…

PoS requires that you get the consensus rules AND a hash of the most recent valid block from a trusted source. With PoW, you only get the consensus rules. Either way, you're relying on a trusted third party for bootstrapping. The risk that the party you trust is defrauding you is infinitesimal in both cases, given you can poll the community widely until you settle a highly credible source of truth, or several credibl…

> PoS requires that you get the consensus rules AND a hash of the most recent valid block from a trusted source.

no, nothing in PoS requires that. just a sad state of affairs with most centralized insecure PoS coins these days.

> With PoW, you only get the consensus rules.

no, you can opt to get hash of the most recent block if you want to compromise your security.

> Either way, you're relying on a trusted third party for bootstrapping.

no, you don't have to rely on trusted party for PoW bootstrapping. if you're scared somebody has communicated consensus rules to you incorrectly or maliciously - you just get those rules from multiple sources and VERIFY THE CHAIN FOR YOURSELF. with PoW you get objective measure to compare those chains, with PoS you get nothing.

> With PoS, you do you have a somewhat similar option: you can measure the market value of the coins of each chain.

no, you completely misunderstand the problem at hand. given coin X and multiple chains of coin X - how do you compare those chains?

market price of coin X tells you nothing how to distinguish between competing chains. market price is completely detached from actual verification work happening on chain.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#194
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Send matches securely to anybody in the world, you say?

Look at how may people and companies lost crypto currency of one form or another. That suggests security is actually a major unsolved issues with crypto.

It's not the fault of crypto currency that people fall for phishing, have insecure infrastructure, or shitty backup strategies.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#195
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try and be less literal - spending is suppressed. At every point there's an incentive to avoid spending as much as possible, and it's exponentially regressive - with enough wealth, and no investment - your wealth continues to increase beyond the amount you need to spend to survive. "No investment" being the core point - the rich may get richer currently, but they have to buy stocks, bonds, start companies in order to…

> Try and be less literal - spending is suppressed. At every point there's an incentive to avoid spending as much as possible, and it's exponentially regressive - with enough wealth, and no investment - your wealth continues to increase beyond the amount you need to spend to survive. If you use the same argument in reverse for an inflationary economy it doesn't add up. The argument would be that everyone would avoid…

> Small amounts of inflation are manageable. The same is true for deflation.

Only in the presence of a Reserve Bank, which Bitcoin doesn't have. There's no ability for any authority to increase the number of Bitcoins possible, which means it's permanently deflationary.

Inflationary currencies pay interest via Reserve Bank policies in order to be managed. Bitcoin has no such mechanisms, nor can any be implemented.

> The reason people would join such a system is because they want to get wealthy too!

Which is why ICOs are so popular. Why pay tribute to the original Bitcoin miners when you can just become you're own, recognizing that the only thing holding up the value is irrational in the first place (doesn't mean it's not a real way to get people to part with their money).

> The thing they spend their money on is more useful than the money itself.

Computers are one good in many-faceted economy. Deflationary currency means the currency is worth more against everything in the economy with each passing day. So not only will I not buy a computer with it, I will also not put it in a bank (why risk it?), not buy stocks, bonds, or even really loan it to anyone. In fact the right thing to do (if there was anything pinning it's value) would be to first spend all my non-Bitcoin money on necessities, and acquire and sit on, in offline wallets, as much Bitcoin as possible. But Bitcoin is a currency - to even be useful people have to actually use it.

So why don't people do this? For the aforementioned reasons - no one can actually require me to hold Bitcoin to pay taxes or extinguish debts. So just sitting on it is foolish since there's no real way to predict when the irrational market will end - except over the long term, I do know the price must crash since every Bitcoin market participant must eventually cash-out to pay taxes and electricity bills and what have you. So in fact there's nothing holding it up. The only actual reason anyone has to hold Bitcoins is when they get ramsomware'd.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#196
post #39

> state channels (ETH’s version of Lightning), but it is unclear whether main-chain issued ERC20 type tokens will be portable to this environment. The Raiden project is the closest thing to Lightning, was recently deployed to the main chain, and explicitly supports any ERC20 token. The article says Plasma is dead because...Peter Todd, a Bitcoin dev, claims they had a similar idea and rejected it? Meanwhile, on Ethere…

People like Tuur are so frustrating, because they complained about ethereum since day one (while lobbing lots of cheap shots at it) and now that it has turned into a big successful project, they are still around and say "see! I was right! It still hasn't cured world hunger!"

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#197
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is, I suppose, very similar to criminal motive, except that we find them sympathetic. A reminder that not all that is (locally, de facto) illegal is wrong. One man's terrorist &c.

Similar to criminal motives? It seems you never had 0 (zero) dollars and needed to receive a few dollars from your family outside your country with a government fully controlling the flow of capital.

The government being in the way of letting you receive a few dollars from your family is what's similar.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#198
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Bitcoin is not backed by government force, then why is it worth anything? Because no one can be compelled to accept Bitcoin to extinguish my debts to them (i.e. by the courts) and I can't pay my taxes in Bitcoin to my local government (no, "just-in-time currency exchange doesn't count). So given these problems, what is the exchange rate of Bitcoin into anything else supposed to be? Given, again, that eventually, e…

Not all commercial transactions involve debt.

Care to give any examples which aren't just examples of very short-lived debts? (i.e. when I buy something at the corner store, we immediately resolve the debt).

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#199
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Bitcoin is not backed by government force, then why is it worth anything? Because no one can be compelled to accept Bitcoin to extinguish my debts to them (i.e. by the courts) and I can't pay my taxes in Bitcoin to my local government (no, "just-in-time currency exchange doesn't count). So given these problems, what is the exchange rate of Bitcoin into anything else supposed to be? Given, again, that eventually, e…

> If Bitcoin is not backed by government force, then why is it worth anything? > Because no one can be compelled to accept Bitcoin to extinguish my debts to them (i.e. by the courts) and I can't pay my taxes in Bitcoin to my local government (no, "just-in-time currency exchange doesn't count). Imagine that! People are willing to accept my bitcoin as a payment for their services voluntarily , and not because they are…

Unless the electricity company accepts Bitcoin, then you've got a problem. In fact you have a problem even if they did - because the hard-cap on the number of Bitcoins means eventually, every Bitcoin will be held by the electricity company.

In fact it's worse then that - since the value of early Bitcoins is less then the value of later Bitcoins, but all Bitcoins are going up in buying power, the electricity company is eventually the richest entity in Bitcoin without even having to be malevolent.

Of course, this doesn't happen because none of them can pay their taxes (or their suppliers taxes) in Bitcoin. In fact no one using Bitcoin can - everyone eventually has to sell all their Bitcoins to someone to recover the currency they need to do that. But who's buying it then? There's a finite amount - if it stays in use it's worth more then you sold it for when you try to get it back - or, since everyone eventually has to sell it, it's worth less - and less again.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say “check merkle proof”, how do you know what it’s supposed to be? Trust somebody gives you the right hash? There is no difference between BTC’s UTXO model and Ethereum’s account model in this sense - both are aggregate structures and to have full certainty the aggregate you’re looking at is correct you have to run through all the transactions. To speedup sync in BTC it is assumed that blocks older than some amo…

> how do you know what it’s supposed to be The information is in the block headers. > In ETH instead it is common to just download the result and trust it’s valid Nope. You still have to download all the block headers from block 0 and check if they are valid, including the PoW and other hashes.. The blocks are basically tamper proof as in Bitcoin (but can also be vulnerable to a 51% attack) Then that's where it all d…

> The information is in the block headers

> You still have to download all the block headers from block 0 and check if they are valid, including the PoW and other hashes..

and unless you validate those blocks you don't know if the chain you're looking at is valid. headers don't help with that.

> The blocks are basically tamper proof as in Bitcoin (but can also be vulnerable to a 51% attack)

vulnerability to 51% attack depends on cost of such attack. if it is "normal" in ethereum to trust third parties with state of just couple hundred blocks old - the attack becomes very cheap. and if i understand correctly that's the case with majority of ethereum nodes as they aren't fully validating and are in fast sync or light mode.

in BTC `--assumevalid` points to a block that is more than year and a half old.

> The roots of these trees are in the blocks, once you have these, you can verify a particular value of, say, a state value, without the need to verify each and every other value, by walking through the tree and doing a merkle proof.

except when the state you downloaded from third parties and assumed was valid, was actually forged. since you're not executing transactions you can't know what transaction receipts would have been created.

> And yes, it got all the blocks from 0 to current. Blocks by themselves are very light.

nah, i call bs. it might have downloaded them but didn't validate anything beyond headers and some recent transactions. admittedly i haven't checked for like half a year, but full sync was literally freezing and not completing at all on powerful laptops and aws instances. it's quite possible the wonder kids of javascript cryptocurrency finally fixed their shit but i wouldn't bet my money on it.

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