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Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

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Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

from the internet. are you now going to argue that there is no difference between knowing a couple pages of text that describe how a system should work from downloading and running opaque binary from untrusted source?

So you're trusting someone on the internet to tell you protocol specifications (and then, since you don't trust the software distributor, doing a full audit of their software or writing your own client). With Proof of Stake, you're trusting someone on the internet to tell you the hash for the most recent valid block. And in practice the difference is even less significant. In reality, very close to every new user of…

The two are very different.

Knowing consensus rules I can verify the chain and if I notice something fishy - I go back to figuring out if I’m being attacked.

If instead I simply accept what chain I should follow - I have no guarantees I wasn’t attacked.

With PoS it’s even worse - I can generate million different chains for zero cost and you have no objective measure to tell which one of them is more genuine and more secure. That’s exactly the issue PoW solves - gives you such objective measure to compare chains.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#172
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, some Proof-of-Stake setup: 1. Assume we have some set of "validators" who control the global consensus process. They come to consensus on the current global state of the system. These validators are vaguely analogous to miners in Proof-of-Work consensus. 2. These validators have coins bonded as collateral in exchange for more voting power in the consensus process. One key idea necessary for Proof-of-Stake is t…

As a new user in a Proof-of-Stake protocol, how do I determine which chain to follow? With PoW I can choose the 'longest' chain (chain with the most total work).

It's solved for Cardano (Genesis). A new user can determine which chain to follow without relying on third parties.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#173
post #39

> state channels (ETH’s version of Lightning), but it is unclear whether main-chain issued ERC20 type tokens will be portable to this environment. The Raiden project is the closest thing to Lightning, was recently deployed to the main chain, and explicitly supports any ERC20 token. The article says Plasma is dead because...Peter Todd, a Bitcoin dev, claims they had a similar idea and rejected it? Meanwhile, on Ethere…

> The entire article is of similar quality.

You cherry-picked some points and rebuffed them, then proceeded to generalize and dismiss all of them.

The reality is that any SQL database would be superior to every blockchain unless your motives are criminal nature.

Disclosure: I sold all of my cryptos in Q1 2018, after buying my first bitcoin in the summer of 2013 and loosing a (luckily) small chunk of it in the infamous MtGox hack.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#174
post #149
post #95

When reading this I think of my deep knowledge of TCP (especially the pain points) and yet it is "The Internet" for the past while. Compared to simpler protocols like Delta-T and later/better protocols like XTP, TCP still "won" for a variety of reasons (adoption, good enough, numbers of implementation, hardware implementation, etc) There are a couple reasons I think Ethereum might prevail over bitcoin: * Vitalik is y…

I guess BSD and Linux were aiming to take the same position as OS where Bitcoin and Ethereum are not. No one sane would get Bitcoin staffed with complicated features beyond its simple purpose of keeping a decentralized ledger. Nothing else would go forward if it isn't for Bitcoin running in a stable way. Bitcoin would be positioned as TCP whereas Ethereum would be regarded as HTTP protocol ready to run apps on top. B…

Except that HTTP literally does run on top of TCP, while Ethereum doesn't depend on Bitcoin in any way, unless you count price action and the minds of many speculators.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#175

TL;DR: A long, insightful, and at least partially correct critique of the "state" of Ethereum as of today. My humble 0.02 is that what's current is immature and unstable, but there's a decent chance that Ethereum, or Bitcoin, or both, will at some point in the future provide some interesting technical solutions/services. The fact that Ethereum is not there yet is not a good enough argument for me.

Other than making some people really rich, what problems would it solve that aren’t better solved by existing solutions which don’t burn energy to create secure entropy?

A simple one already deployed on Ethereum: online gambling, where you don't have to trust the casino to run fair games or hold your money.

As with most things, this can be sort of solved with heavy regulatory structures and enforcement, but I would argue that it's not better solved, especially once proof of stake eliminates the problem of burning energy.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#176
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spending does not stop. It may slow. Most arguments against deflation are largely strawmen, and the historical examples of it are usually a result of too much government intervention, or it following a period of high inflation. Here's an example of deflation: Moore's Law. If computing power is going to double in 18 months, then a computer I buy now will be worth much less in 18 months. If that's the case, best not bu…

Try and be less literal - spending is suppressed. At every point there's an incentive to avoid spending as much as possible, and it's exponentially regressive - with enough wealth, and no investment - your wealth continues to increase beyond the amount you need to spend to survive. "No investment" being the core point - the rich may get richer currently, but they have to buy stocks, bonds, start companies in order to…

> Try and be less literal - spending is suppressed. At every point there's an incentive to avoid spending as much as possible, and it's exponentially regressive - with enough wealth, and no investment - your wealth continues to increase beyond the amount you need to spend to survive.

If you use the same argument in reverse for an inflationary economy it doesn't add up. The argument would be that everyone would avoid saving. This is only true if you have hyperinflation. Small amounts of inflation are manageable. The same is true for deflation. If deflation is low, the effects it has are manageable. If we have hyperdeflation, then sure, people will avoid spending as much as possible.

If deflation is low, the amount which could be gained by holding the currency is tiny compared to the amount which could be gained by investing it in productive enterprises. The same is true in the inflationary model, because lenders must pay interest on borrowed money, their productive enterprises must earn at least the the amount lent plus the interest and the difference due to inflation, or they'd be making losses.

> Of course the system collapses if you don't have to buy in (i.e. no taxes) because why should anyone join such a regressive system?

This is why socialist types repeat the same mistakes over and fail to recognize them, or the value of free markets. The reason people would join such a system is because they want to get wealthy too!. People desire wealth. If they desire it enough, they will be productive and climb the ladder to get into the club. If they are unproductive, they will probably whine and complain that they should be entitled to other people's wealth. Socialism is a utopian ideal because it ignores human nature.

Bitcoin is extremely risky at this point, and was even more so 9 years ago. The people who invested then took massive risks in doing so. People investing now are taking huge risks. It will be a risky investment until it becomes pervasive. There will probably many more cycles of inflation and deflation because adoption does not match the supply rate. If people earn money from taking this risk, good on them. If people don't take the risk, they're not going to be part of the club. You've got to be in it to win it. Bitcoin is not like land rights which are exclusively granted by rulers or taken by force. There is no restriction and anybody can be an equal party.

The early adopters who have mined coins need to pay their electricity bills. It's not free money. They've had to sell the coins into a market. The distribution of coins is much more widespread than the mining process because of this. People hodl bitcoin even during inflationary periods because they believe it has a strong selling point which will give it leverage in the longer term. (They're low time preference people. Not necessarily the already wealthy.)

> And Moore's law is an ideal example of this problem really - at every point you shouldn't buy a new computer unless the present value you'll gain from one is outweighed by the depreciation in the future. Turns out computers are pretty amazing so this is a lot less of a problem - but computers actually do things. Bitcoins don't.

This is precisely my point. People still buy computers. The thing they spend their money on is more useful than the money itself. This is true of anything really. People need things to live, they need leisure and entertainment, and they're willing to spend a bit of money on it now, even though it will be cheaper later. It applies to most commodities: they lose value over time faster than the currency does. This is what makes the currency desirable to hold over those other commodities when people don't need to spend.

Inflation has the perverse incentive that it encourages people to spend when they don't need to spend. People are trained to have high time preference lifestyles, which are extremely hard to escape from if you're a low earner. You see the behaviours of low earners often do not help their situations at all, which is why they often get stuck in their economic position. The argument that economies should encourage spending (particularly among low earners) obviously doesn't help them either. They should be encouraged to save. The idea of intentionally building things to only last a few years, so that they need to buy a new one every few years doesn't help them (or landfills) either, but is supposedly "good for the economy."

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#177
post #15
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Programs that don't require brute-force commonly use many times less energy than programs that do rely on brute force." Can you give an example of a program that gives similar results?

Do you think these questions are clever? How about YOU give an example for a crypto use case that can't be achieved with traditional methods?

A digital, decentralized currency. If you want to solve the double-spend problem, you need some kind of economically incentivized block inclusion lottery.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you're just trusting the network initially Yeah, let’s “just” trust random strangers’ computers to tell us the state of financial system. What could possibly go wrong. If you don’t understand importance of “don’t trust, verify” than you shouldn’t have anything to do with cryptocurrencies (or cryptography for that matter).

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but I disagree with you. A merkle tree is a recursive structure. If you trust a substructure of it, then you don't need to repeatedly re-evaluate that substructure. What that means in practical terms is if the merkle-tree entry summarising the state of the chain as it was a year ago is assumed correct, then you don't need to keep any of the transaction data from before that point.…

It is possible to create new transaction outputs using old UTXOs, hence nodes can do its own checkpointing if they wish, with a loss of transaction fee.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spending does not stop. It may slow. Most arguments against deflation are largely strawmen, and the historical examples of it are usually a result of too much government intervention, or it following a period of high inflation. Here's an example of deflation: Moore's Law. If computing power is going to double in 18 months, then a computer I buy now will be worth much less in 18 months. If that's the case, best not bu…

Cars and computers are not investments. They have direct utility. Money does not (unless you burn it for heat). >the choice to hold a deflationary currency or an inflationary one, let them pick! We'll see if those economists were right after all when people actually have a choice. We have them already. They just aren’t called currencies because their price instability makes them somewhat useless as currencies. See: g…

> Cars and computers are not investments. They have direct utility. Money does not (unless you burn it for heat).

Right. The deflationary argument is that people won't spend money because the money appreciates in value over time versus the things they would spend it on. Those examples, and there are many others tell a different story. People will buy things which have utility, even if they lose value relative to the currency over time.

>We have them already. They just aren’t called currencies because their price instability makes them somewhat useless as currencies. See: gold.

You say the price of gold is unstable, because you're taking a dollar as your reference point. Dollars are actually far more volatile than gold because they can be printed arbitrarily, where gold is only found in limited amounts. If you measure the value of the dollar in terms of gold, over time, you'll see which is really the useless one!

The reason gold is not used much any more is largely due to the historical practices of confiscation and outlawing of possession. Admittedly, it is not the best commodity to use as currency due to its weight and difficulty to verify the authenticity of.

Thankfully, Bitcoin can solve all of those problems. It can't necessarily be confiscated if you manage your keys correctly. Possession can be plausibly deniable. It doesn't have the problems of transport, and it is trivial to verify the authenticity of. As a bonus, it is well suited to our digital age where much of commerce is conducted remotely.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#180
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In short, the crypto hate is a reaction to the crypto hype. Actually, as someone who was very interested in Bitcoin in the early days of 2011-2012, I disagree. If anything, the hate on HN was even greater back then, way before Bitcoin became hyped. So many people were convinced it was a pyramid scheme. It was clear to anyone familiar with the Bitcoin community back then that there were a lot of highly technical, ta…

> But even back in 2011, there was a very high number of HNers who seemed personally affronted by the very idea that money was a social agreement. They seemed to believe that money was some kind of official, government activity, end of story. And that anyone who believed otherwise was an evil heretic, to be ridiculed. This x10. If I were to anthropomorphise HN it would be a middle aged white collar worker, pretty sma…

Your anthropomorphized HN rings amusingly true and strikes me as a bit sad. I was here in the early days, and back then HN was full of people reading PG and planning their own startups. I was one of them, but (until recently) ended up settling in as a middle-aged white collar worker, with cash in the bank and self-congratulations for my focus on craft over money. I guess I'm not the only one.

I never found Bitcoin threatening though. When I finally read Satoshi's paper, it struck me as beautifully elegant, and a great experiment in practical economics.

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