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Why MIT uses Python instead of Scheme for its undergraduate CS program (2009)

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Re: Why MIT uses Python instead of Scheme for its undergraduate CS program (2009)

#91

Post by halfastack »

gronne wrote: post #77
_hardwaregeek wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why people hate on starting with JavaScript. Since ES6, JS strikes a really nice balance between practical usage and theoretical value. Like Scheme it's a dynamically typed language focused around a single data structure (list for Scheme, object for JS), with first class functions. Sure, it has weak typing and there's some scoping complexity. But, that's a completely reasonable tradeoff for being one of t…

I disagree completely - javascript encourages shitty programming by design and by culture. If you don’t expose the young chances are they won’t get infected.

Because all of those who started on something like C, C++, or Java have way better programming practices? My experience tells me that starting language is literally not a vector in determining how good of a programmer someone is.

Re: Why MIT uses Python instead of Scheme for its undergraduate CS program (2009)

#92

Post by mmcnl »

gronne wrote: post #77
_hardwaregeek wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why people hate on starting with JavaScript. Since ES6, JS strikes a really nice balance between practical usage and theoretical value. Like Scheme it's a dynamically typed language focused around a single data structure (list for Scheme, object for JS), with first class functions. Sure, it has weak typing and there's some scoping complexity. But, that's a completely reasonable tradeoff for being one of t…

I disagree completely - javascript encourages shitty programming by design and by culture. If you don’t expose the young chances are they won’t get infected.

This is absolutely nonsense. Modern JavaScript is powerful and actually quite elegant. Perhaps stop thinking about the crappy JavaScript people wrote >10 years ago.

Re: Why MIT uses Python instead of Scheme for its undergraduate CS program (2009)

#93

Post by jcelerier »

southerndrift wrote: post #43
karmasimida wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learned Python as my first TRUE(explain later) language and I will be forever grateful for it. Now I am a polyglot, jumping through multiple languages all the time, be it Python/Java/Javascript, or occasionally flirtation with some languages that are foreign to my daily routine but necessary to get my job done. I am not quite on board with you claim that Python is chosen for monetary benefits. To be a qualified pro…

Compared to C, Python is the better choice. However, it seems like you haven't learned a Lisp dialect. I would love to know if you would still prefer Python once you know Scheme.

> Compared to C, Python is the better choice. However, it seems like you haven't learned a Lisp dialect. I would love to know if you would still prefer Python once you know Scheme.

the school I went used to teach C, Python and Scheme in the first year (nowadays it's C, Python and Racket). I don't think I remember more than one or two people actually liking the LISP experience, how bad it was when comparing to other languages is actually a common joke subject amongst alumni.

Re: Why MIT uses Python instead of Scheme for its undergraduate CS program (2009)

#94

Post by detaro »

curun1r wrote: post #19
ng12 wrote: post #2

> However, he did say that starting off with python makes an undergraduate’s initial experiences maximally productive in the current environment. I read this as "the parents paying tuition wanted their kids to learn practical skills so they can make money". I learned Scheme as a first language and I will be forever grateful for it.

Same here. When I learned programming at UC Berkeley in the 90s, Scheme was the intro language. It was perfect precisely because it was so far from being the kind of language you'd use to engineer large projects. The first day, the professor spent less than half of the period introducing the entire syntax of the language...it's so damn simple. Beyond that, all learning was abstraction, problem solving and CS concepts…

> I pity the MIT students that will waste so much of their intro course learning what is a vastly more complex language. There will be so many students that will struggle to learn python-specific topics that are irrelevant to learning the act of coding and may decide that CS and programming just aren't for them.

As someone who has been part of running intro courses using a variety of languages: While I like the Scheme path for various reasons, I do not recognize the effect you imagine at all from the students I've seen. That there are complex areas of Python is basically irrelevant for intro courses, the few pain points are really easy to explain and remember, and Python is great for the experimentation phase (the core is easy enough, the (standard) library ecosystem helps satisfying random interests and can generally also be used without being exposed to problematic parts of the language, REPL)

Re: Why MIT uses Python instead of Scheme for its undergraduate CS program (2009)

#95

Post by gronne »

halfastack wrote: post #91
gronne wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree completely - javascript encourages shitty programming by design and by culture. If you don’t expose the young chances are they won’t get infected.

Because all of those who started on something like C, C++, or Java have way better programming practices? My experience tells me that starting language is literally not a vector in determining how good of a programmer someone is.

I agree. Maybe its the barrier to entry for publishing that has gotten a lot lower and thus pushing down the quality of public code (which is natural). Or maybe im just worried about everything being pushed to the browser.

Re: Why MIT uses Python instead of Scheme for its undergraduate CS program (2009)

#96

Post by gronne »

mmcnl wrote: post #92
gronne wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree completely - javascript encourages shitty programming by design and by culture. If you don’t expose the young chances are they won’t get infected.

This is absolutely nonsense. Modern JavaScript is powerful and actually quite elegant. Perhaps stop thinking about the crappy JavaScript people wrote >10 years ago.

Maybe some are. There is however nothing nothing elegant about running 5 massive electron, node etc apps in your browser w. 60% code overlap grinding everything to a halt. Its not so much the language but how its being used.

Re: Why MIT uses Python instead of Scheme for its undergraduate CS program (2009)

#97

Post by jimhefferon »

jcelerier wrote: post #93
southerndrift wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared to C, Python is the better choice. However, it seems like you haven't learned a Lisp dialect. I would love to know if you would still prefer Python once you know Scheme.

> Compared to C, Python is the better choice. However, it seems like you haven't learned a Lisp dialect. I would love to know if you would still prefer Python once you know Scheme. the school I went used to teach C, Python and Scheme in the first year (nowadays it's C, Python and Racket). I don't think I remember more than one or two people actually liking the LISP experience, how bad it was when comparing to other l…

I'd be interested in what aspects strike people as bad. (Honest question. If you reply, I promise not to come back with "But, but, but ...")

Re: Why MIT uses Python instead of Scheme for its undergraduate CS program (2009)

#98

Post by gronne »

innocentoldguy wrote: post #78
karmasimida wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learned Python as my first TRUE(explain later) language and I will be forever grateful for it. Now I am a polyglot, jumping through multiple languages all the time, be it Python/Java/Javascript, or occasionally flirtation with some languages that are foreign to my daily routine but necessary to get my job done. I am not quite on board with you claim that Python is chosen for monetary benefits. To be a qualified pro…

> I am not quite on board with you [sic] claim that Python is chosen for monetary benefits. I can see it. I used to make a lot of money doing Python programming. About $40k a year more than I ever made doing C, Java, C# or C++. Of course, I did Python more recently, so there is the wage inflation between 1992 and today to consider. Still, you can make a lot writing Python code.

~70k today. Programming python in 92 - nice :)

Re: Why MIT uses Python instead of Scheme for its undergraduate CS program (2009)

#99

Post by xte »

innocentoldguy wrote: post #78
karmasimida wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learned Python as my first TRUE(explain later) language and I will be forever grateful for it. Now I am a polyglot, jumping through multiple languages all the time, be it Python/Java/Javascript, or occasionally flirtation with some languages that are foreign to my daily routine but necessary to get my job done. I am not quite on board with you claim that Python is chosen for monetary benefits. To be a qualified pro…

> I am not quite on board with you [sic] claim that Python is chosen for monetary benefits. I can see it. I used to make a lot of money doing Python programming. About $40k a year more than I ever made doing C, Java, C# or C++. Of course, I did Python more recently, so there is the wage inflation between 1992 and today to consider. Still, you can make a lot writing Python code.

I find this affirmation, while perfectly legit and natural, a really sad indicator of today's state of IT: normally I expect a programmer to be payed because of it knowledge and time, used to solve problems. In that sense languages, libraries etc are simple tools so a metric like "$tool make me earn $amount of money" is a nonsense, something like a carpenter saying "drill make me more money than saw"...

Of course, some tools maybe more effective than others, but I still find sad measure in money terms any of them...

Re: Why MIT uses Python instead of Scheme for its undergraduate CS program (2009)

#100

Post by BerislavLopac »

zmmmmm wrote: post #89

I feel like Python is too half baked to be a really good language to teach fundamentals. By "half baked" I mean - sort of supports functional programming, but not really. Sort of supports object oriented design, but not really. Sort of allows type system theory to be taught, but not really. So many sort ofs. It's a great language if you just want to get someone cranking some code. But if I wanted a language to be a b…

Wait, don't all these "sort ofs" make it actually an ideal tool for teaching the basics? I mean, we're talking about basics, so what you're saying is that you can teach the basics of a number of different paradigms with one language.
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