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Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

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Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#201

Post by bjourne »

jogjayr wrote: post #180
bjourne wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That complaint doesn't make any sense. I can understand teachers complaining about kids disturbing their lessons, are unruly and threaten them with violence and so on. I can not understand teachers complaining about kids being extra ambitious and doing what they can to get the highest grades! I'll get downvoted for this, but if your moms worst problem is overachievers and parents caring about their children's educati…

Asking the teacher to set and grade extra credit work because a student didn't get the grade they wanted isn't fair to the teacher. I don't think the teacher is the one that needs to "suck it up" here ;-). The student could just try not going to Princeton - most of the world hasn't studied there and done fine.

The teacher isn't obliged to work for free - I didn't write that. I wrote that a teacher whose worst problem is a too high fraction of overachievers trying to get into Princeton among his or her pupils has no reason to complain.

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#202

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

zanny wrote: post #169
xamuel wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people wouldn't be able to cut it in software dev, whether they did the 3 month bootcamp or even if they managed to pass a 4-year university program. 99% of the time, Little Jimmy's 4th grade English teacher would have a snowball's chance in hell as a professional developer.

This might have been true 20 years ago when software development meant everything from a fundamental understanding of hardware (including how pixels are laid out, how to manage gamma, etc for the front end) to knowing a lot of theory (because you had to implement your collections in house, manage the code base by hand, etc) but nowadays I'm pretty sure at least half of everyone could be pointed at a web framework and…

Programming has already been commoditized. No one has to learn anything. Simply outsource the code to a shop in India. Done.

It's easy for those small problems. It's hard when you're designing products that need to get to market quickly and solve a difficult problem without product sinking bugs. That's why developers and engineers get paid a lot more.

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#203

Post by atombender »

grecy wrote: post #67
allcentury wrote: post #14

There's much more to this story. My mother, a high school calculus teacher for the last 22 years is so ready to retire. I didn't think my mom would ever retire, she spends countless hours coming up with unique lesson plans for the kids - they usually involve games, real world use cases and many ah-ha moments. She lives for those moments when a kid lights up when they understand the value of what their learning. Now t…

My entire family are teachers (Mum, Dad, Sister, Brother), and have all had to deal with this to varying degrees, and have had it consume their lives at various times. My brother has the best work-life balance of any teacher I have ever met, and I think his approach is brilliant. Teaching is one of those careers where the expectation is on the teacher to endlessly do more and work harder, "For the kids", and if you k…

That sounds like a great life-work balance, but it also sounds like a privileged position that is unrealistic for many teachers. My girlfriend teaches art to kids aged 8-14 at an urban public school, and she has zero time during the day for lesson planning, grading, seating plans, hanging up artwork, dealing with parents, etc. On most days she has to stay behind for several hours, and she often works throughout the weekend. She doesn't get paid overtime (nor does the school offer health insurance or 401(k)) because she's technically a contractor -- the school can't afford full time hires -- and she constantly has to spend her own money on supplies and materials for her classes. Refusing to work outside work hours would be career suicide, pretty much.

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#204

Post by tokyodude »

nilkn wrote: post #141
woolvalley wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it's a pay issue too isn't it? If a family paid for the teachers time for extra work, then I'm guessing the pushback wouldn't be as bad.

I was tempted to agree when I read this, but then I thought that this creates an unfair advantage for parents who can afford to pay for extra time from the teacher.

So the parent with more money pay for a different tutor. What's the difference? Or are suggesting the parents with more money should not be allowed to pay for there kids to do anything a parent with less money can't afford?

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#205

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

zackbloom wrote: post #108
neom wrote: post #25

One of my favourite hypotheticals to play out is what would be like if we somehow paid public school teachers and emergency services/law enforcement professionals an extreme of today, a million usd a year, and increased the difficulty to attain this work. I usually end up in a pretty good place but I'd be curious what others think/why this couldn't work?

I think a generally cheaper and easier way to manage it would be to require all children, rich and poor, go to the same schools. The economic factors would change pretty dramatically for being a public school teacher.

Seems to me that private school tuition should be taxed to provide benefits to public schooling.

The rich would still afford private school. Public schools get more funding.

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#206

Post by jonathankoren »

whatshisface wrote: post #128
zackbloom wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a generally cheaper and easier way to manage it would be to require all children, rich and poor, go to the same schools. The economic factors would change pretty dramatically for being a public school teacher.

What if the rich parents disagree with the poor parents about how the school should be run?

That's what school board elections are for.

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#207

Post by bittercynic »

whatshisface wrote: post #128
zackbloom wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a generally cheaper and easier way to manage it would be to require all children, rich and poor, go to the same schools. The economic factors would change pretty dramatically for being a public school teacher.

What if the rich parents disagree with the poor parents about how the school should be run?

They might have to compromise, and find solutions that work for both.

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#208

Post by CydeWeys »

ineedasername wrote: post #166
scarface74 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the real world, you don’t get a chance to get “extra credit work” when you don’t do your job at the level the job expects of you. Why should students be coddled instead of being prepared for the real world? I have a high school student who is always getting better grades because of “extra credit” and “make up tests”. I cringe every time he does it.

In the real deal world, sure you do: ever not get something right the first try at work? Ever have to work longer hours because a project ran over the expected time? The real world doesn't have all of the arbitrary limits we see in the modern education system.

In the real world there are lots of drop-dead deadlines with no possibility of extension, usually imposed by external constraints.

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#209

Post by jogjayr »

bjourne wrote: post #201
jogjayr wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asking the teacher to set and grade extra credit work because a student didn't get the grade they wanted isn't fair to the teacher. I don't think the teacher is the one that needs to "suck it up" here ;-). The student could just try not going to Princeton - most of the world hasn't studied there and done fine.

The teacher isn't obliged to work for free - I didn't write that. I wrote that a teacher whose worst problem is a too high fraction of overachievers trying to get into Princeton among his or her pupils has no reason to complain.

An actual overachiever would do everything possible to get an A on the first try - get feedback on assignments and projects before submitting them, ask lots of questions to understand the material, pay attention in class, come to office hours, study harder etc. I think most teachers would welcome that variety of overachiever.

This is just wasting the teacher's time with whining and grumbling.

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#210

Post by ineedasername »

spamizbad wrote: post #174
ineedasername wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I get that's more work, and sounds like a hassle. So this isn't a criticism of your mom. But on the A- and extra credit issue, I never understood the point of rigid grading schemes. I've taught at a college level, and I always give students the chance to improve their grades if they want to put in additional work. To do otherwise seems like saying "nope, even if you learn more and improve to the point of A-leve…

> I never understood the point of rigid grading schemes My wife is a college psychology professor and is fairly strict with her grading scheme. She makes this clear on the first day of class and spells it out directly, in bold, on the syllabus. Her rationale is this: The likelihood of you asking for extra credit, or excuses, or various "grade grubbing" activities is largely influenced by your socioeconomic background…

That's an interesting stance, I haven't noticed that pattern but the composition of colleges varies greatly.

In any case, I get around the whole "grade grubbing" issue by having my policy of "extra" work spelled out, also up front on the syllabus. No one gets anything extra just for bugging me about it. Basically it amounts to allowing homework assignments to be re-done (once). A single quiz grade can be replaced by doing some fairly difficult extra problems. No makeups on the midterm and final, but a research project can be done to get up to 5 points on their final grade. Beyond that I hold office hours and happily spend them further helping students with anything they're stuck on.

Short of (provable) extenuating circumstances, that's about it. I even ask for a police report for students claiming "car accident" for things like missing a quiz. (In one case, a student told me there wasn't one because it was just a minor accident that scratched the side view mirror... I pointed out that an accident like that wouldn't have prevented them showing up to class, even if it was a few minutes late.)

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