Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record • Hacker News Board

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#161

Post by reilly3000 » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 2:37 AM UTC

badminton1 wrote: post #142

tl;dr: Education rant. If you don't like rants don't read this comment. 7 hour a day have no motivation other than preparing kids for 9 to 5 jobs and depriving kids of their valuable time and potential. Software used in education has a lot of room for improvement. A 1 man operation like 3Blue1Brown has done more for education than man-centuries of work in education software. Kids spend years learning inefficient arit…

Of course they will learn, eventually. Or like me, they will learn at a young age but struggle to apply the concepts in adulthood in a meaningful way, because we're all learning these lessons as we go, but we haven't learned effective antidotes yet to concentrations of power that become destructive.

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#162

Post by ineedasername » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 2:39 AM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #152

ineedasername wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I get that's more work, and sounds like a hassle. So this isn't a criticism of your mom. But on the A- and extra credit issue, I never understood the point of rigid grading schemes. I've taught at a college level, and I always give students the chance to improve their grades if they want to put in additional work. To do otherwise seems like saying "nope, even if you learn more and improve to the point of A-leve…

If you learn more, the improvement will be demonstrated in later grades. Grades have to be final at some point; it's more fair if that time is the same for everyone. A better way to handle this case is to drop the student's lowest grade, or maybe even the lowest couple of grades.

It's fair for everyone because they all have the same opportunity. And I do drop the lowest grade :)

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#163

Post by hkmurakami » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 2:40 AM UTC

allcentury wrote: post #14

There's much more to this story. My mother, a high school calculus teacher for the last 22 years is so ready to retire. I didn't think my mom would ever retire, she spends countless hours coming up with unique lesson plans for the kids - they usually involve games, real world use cases and many ah-ha moments. She lives for those moments when a kid lights up when they understand the value of what their learning. Now t…

As an alum who has interviewed many applicants to the school, an A- va A isn’t going to be the difference in an admissions decision. I’m just saying this so your mother may have more peace of mind regarding that email.

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#164

Post by jogjayr » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 2:40 AM UTC

woolvalley wrote: post #123

nilkn wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s more work, and that’s exactly the problem. A teacher deserves to go home and enjoy their family and life outside of work. The only way to make this possible is to have students and parents understand that after a certain point the grade is simply final, so if you want a good grade it’s your responsibility to learn the material prior to exams or large projects or assignments being due. Everyone knows this; there…

Well it's a pay issue too isn't it? If a family paid for the teachers time for extra work, then I'm guessing the pushback wouldn't be as bad.

It's not a big leap from "pay extra for extra credit assignments to improve grade" to "pay extra to improve grade".

I'm not suggesting that the vast majority of teachers would be tempted or give in to bribery. But it sets up perverse incentives and the optics are terrible. It's also unfair to students who didn't do well and whose families can't afford to pay the teacher to grade their extra credit assignments.

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#165

Post by jogjayr » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 2:43 AM UTC

dba7dba wrote: post #107

Shivetya wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in a similar vein, my aunt who is going for a few more years than your mom noted that the ratio of non teaching jobs to teaching narrowed considerably and she ended moving from a city system to a county system because of all the appointees from the mayor's office which ate up funds they could use for other needs. throw in that many of the non teaching jobs are being held in higher regard and also quick to deflect the…

It is a very curious thing that administrators in school districts are held in higher regard than the teachers. Programmers are held in higher regard because they do the actual work, if you know what I mean. Everyone else is in a support role. And yet in school administrators are paid higher and have it easier, because they don't have to deal with parents directly.

> Programmers are held in higher regard because they do the actual work, if you know what I mean.

I've found that to be the case in very few of the organizations I've worked at.

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#166

Post by ineedasername » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 2:44 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #135

ineedasername wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I get that's more work, and sounds like a hassle. So this isn't a criticism of your mom. But on the A- and extra credit issue, I never understood the point of rigid grading schemes. I've taught at a college level, and I always give students the chance to improve their grades if they want to put in additional work. To do otherwise seems like saying "nope, even if you learn more and improve to the point of A-leve…

In the real world, you don’t get a chance to get “extra credit work” when you don’t do your job at the level the job expects of you. Why should students be coddled instead of being prepared for the real world? I have a high school student who is always getting better grades because of “extra credit” and “make up tests”. I cringe every time he does it.

In the real deal world, sure you do: ever not get something right the first try at work? Ever have to work longer hours because a project ran over the expected time? The real world doesn't have all of the arbitrary limits we see in the modern education system.

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#167

Post by ineedasername » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 2:46 AM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #49

ineedasername wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I get that's more work, and sounds like a hassle. So this isn't a criticism of your mom. But on the A- and extra credit issue, I never understood the point of rigid grading schemes. I've taught at a college level, and I always give students the chance to improve their grades if they want to put in additional work. To do otherwise seems like saying "nope, even if you learn more and improve to the point of A-leve…

If we accept that the characteristics that grades are meant to represent are dynamic, what is the benefit of recording them at all? They will be perpetually out of date as people continue to learn (and forget).

No, what the grade represents stays the same. It's the grade that's dynamic, changing as the student's knowledge and understanding changes.

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#168

Post by Wowfunhappy » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 2:48 AM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #162

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you learn more, the improvement will be demonstrated in later grades. Grades have to be final at some point; it's more fair if that time is the same for everyone. A better way to handle this case is to drop the student's lowest grade, or maybe even the lowest couple of grades.

It's fair for everyone because they all have the same opportunity. And I do drop the lowest grade :)

Just to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with giving extra credit assignments, if the teacher chooses. But the availability of extra credit should be clear to everyone, not given out because a specific student (or parent) demanded it.

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#169

Post by zanny » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 2:49 AM UTC

xamuel wrote: post #129

shados wrote: post #11

Articles like these, while only loosely related, always make me think that the software engineering bubble has to pop. You have people with ton of education busting their behind dealing with little brats all day to try to make sure they have a future... During that time, some bro who read a couple of books and hammered on his keyboard, and MAYBE did a 3 months bootcamp gets bummed if he can't pull in 100k in one of t…

Most people wouldn't be able to cut it in software dev, whether they did the 3 month bootcamp or even if they managed to pass a 4-year university program. 99% of the time, Little Jimmy's 4th grade English teacher would have a snowball's chance in hell as a professional developer.

This might have been true 20 years ago when software development meant everything from a fundamental understanding of hardware (including how pixels are laid out, how to manage gamma, etc for the front end) to knowing a lot of theory (because you had to implement your collections in house, manage the code base by hand, etc) but nowadays I'm pretty sure at least half of everyone could be pointed at a web framework and bootstrap and make a functional website in half a year.

Sure a professional would have made that in a week, but their next site will take half as long, and then half as long... until they are within striking distance of someone who does still know all those fundamentals. They will mostly be limited in what they can do, but most people don't really need developers that can do anything even if they pay for them without realizing that.

Programming is being commoditized. In the same way you don't see a doctor first thing when you go to one; you see a nurse, tech, or assistant. Not everything requires the most expensive learning investment. Most programming jobs don't require you to be able to write a proof of the code you copy paste from Stack Overflow.

Re: Teachers Quit Jobs at Highest Rate on Record

#170

Post by ineedasername » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 2:51 AM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #50

ineedasername wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I get that's more work, and sounds like a hassle. So this isn't a criticism of your mom. But on the A- and extra credit issue, I never understood the point of rigid grading schemes. I've taught at a college level, and I always give students the chance to improve their grades if they want to put in additional work. To do otherwise seems like saying "nope, even if you learn more and improve to the point of A-leve…

> I've taught at a college level, and I always give students the chance to improve their grades if they want to put in additional work. Isn't it 'rigid' to give only a limited amount of time( end of yr or whatever) for that chance. Seems like saying "nope, even if you learn more and improve to the point of A-level knowledge, you're still getting a lower grade".

yep, the time is rigid, but I can't do anything about that. and anyway there has to be some balance between the extremes. Within the confines of what I can control, I place that balance where I feel it maximizes student learning. And over the course of the semester I probably only spend an extra 2 or 3 hours dealing with supplemental like this. Seems worth it to me.