Live data from Hacker News

Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes people drive more (2015)

vox.com

71–80 of 302 posts

Re: Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes people drive more (2015)

#71
If you are sitting there thinking: "So what", I highly recommend you educate yourself on how building roads actually affects US infrastructure.

We have a CRUMBLING infrastructure in the US, and people are constantly complaining about potholes in major metropolitan areas. And the solution is build more roads? We cannot even maintain the ones we have!

Recommended reading:

- https://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme

- https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2018/1/16/why-walkable-s...

Re: Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes people drive more (2015)

#72

Is this even a problem? People are given an opportunity to do something and then they do it. That's way better than new roads going unused, isn't it? I like congestion charging alright, which the article advocates at the very end, but it has a habit of being regressive - it's easy for me, as a software engineer, to show up at work at 11AM, but that might not be the case for those who can less afford to pay those char…

People are given an opportunity to do something and then they do it.

If you don't put a price on it then people won't prioritise, and the demand becomes endless. And you can never have supply to meet an endless demand.

Re: Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes people drive more (2015)

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It kind of does. But only to a certain point; in some cases you're just shuffling growth around the region rather than stimulating new regional growth. A lot of road capacity is needed, but a lot of it is also purely wasteful and entirely caused by social choice. E.g., the parking lot for the store needs to hold the Black Friday parking demand -> the store is now too far from the street to walk home with bags -> ever…

Nassau county isn’t a city, so the state pays almost all of its major road costs on its behalf.

They cover some of it, but in FY2019 $24.9M of County Debt will be issued for $44.5M of capital expenditure on roads: https://www.nassaucountyny.gov/DocumentCenter/View/23320#pag...

This is actually part of the problem of the American model; larger entities are always willing to foot the bill, so why bother assessing the economic feasibility of a project?

Re: Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes people drive more (2015)

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Old World we have public mass transit. One vehicle can transport a thousand commuters, and it does not need to be stored in the most desired area of the city for the duration of a working day. Sometimes it looks like the Silicon Valley is trying to solve transit problems either against the laws of physics and economics or, alternatively, ignoring solutions that were there already in the 1800s.

Musk is trying to solve the transit problem of people making over 200k a year- Maintain the standard of absolute luxury and privacy provided by the car, while reducing the concentration required to drive and the time it takes to be stuck in traffic.

Sometimes I wonder how buses with private compartments would be received, compared to today's cattle cars.

Re: Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes people drive more (2015)

#75
Eh... There was a toll lane added from just outside Boulder part way to Denver. This has not generated more traffic, but it has generally speed up the road (sometimes to an undesirable extent as faster moving vehicles make more noise).

They didn't change the two lane in each direction structure, they just added another lane on each side which can only be entered/exited around exits.

A couple things I've noticed, most mid-day traffic occurs in clumps. You can usually take one segment of toll road for $0.35 and exit back into a mostly empty highway. Also, the toll lane people usually move above the speed limit. This speeds up traffic in general because people seem to tend to move into the right lane when someone blasts past them. A few people do it and most slow drivers will get the idea. And it also discourages lane switching which is a significant contributor to traffic. Once you're in the toll lane, you're committed to it until the next exit.

The problem with just arbitrarily adding more lanes is than lane switching is a major cause of traffic. Every time someone switches a lane because their lane is too slow, they usually cause the car behind them to have to slow down which causes a ripple effect. Add this to complexity of an 8 lane freeway and you may have created a nightmare for travelers. Granted in over populated areas like much of CA, congestion is somewhat unavoidable. (I grew up in the LA area)

Re: Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes people drive more (2015)

#76

Is this even a problem? People are given an opportunity to do something and then they do it. That's way better than new roads going unused, isn't it? I like congestion charging alright, which the article advocates at the very end, but it has a habit of being regressive - it's easy for me, as a software engineer, to show up at work at 11AM, but that might not be the case for those who can less afford to pay those char…

Yes, it is a problem. I can't recall the details, but I have heard compelling arguments why waiting in lines is awful from an economic perspective. You might enjoy hearing an economist's perspective on time.

Poor people would likely benefit overall from more efficient use of roads.

Interstate roads allowed people to live far from things they need (e.g. jobs). Your suggestion is backwards, people should be located near things, not the other way around. Roads with no fees have distorted supply and demand. The market can't function.

Re: Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes people drive more (2015)

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This appears to be a classic case of a visible problem where the effects of the solution are not visible immediately. Building wider roads is a success if they move more people compared to a more narrow road. It doesn't matter if they stay congested even as you widen them. The goal of a wider road isn't to reduce congestion the goal is to move more people. This same type of reasoning is used against constructing more…

>The goal of more housing isn't to reduce rent prices // A goal of house building is certainly to provide affordable housing. Unfortunately that goal isn't shared by the people with the money/land whose goal is usually just "make as much profit as possible". Those already profiting from rent are usually strictly opposed to the goal of affordable housing too. But that doesn't mean that a substantial portion of society…

Of course the power lies with them. Their activism is the primary impediment to actually-feasible projects getting built. All they have to do to yield a healthier supply/demand balance is stand down.

Re: Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes people drive more (2015)

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's easy for me, as a software engineer, to show up at work at 11AM That's the point -- we should incentivize people who can time shift to do so thereby alleviating traffic for those who can't.

As a software engineer who shows up at 11, I can tell you that there is a significant current against us late starters. I agree with you that it would be good for us to move this way, but it is hard for all the early birds to swallow.

Ha. "Early bird" is somebody who arrives before 11?

Re: Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes people drive more (2015)

#79

If you are sitting there thinking: "So what", I highly recommend you educate yourself on how building roads actually affects US infrastructure. We have a CRUMBLING infrastructure in the US, and people are constantly complaining about potholes in major metropolitan areas. And the solution is build more roads? We cannot even maintain the ones we have! Recommended reading: - https://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-…

[deleted]

Re: Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes people drive more (2015)

#80
I don't understand why this is happening. The article attempts to come up with explanations, but I find them hard to believe. Although (most) roads are free to use, we pay for travel in gas, car upkeep, and—perhaps most importantly—time. All of which can be quite costly!

I live in upper Manhattan and have an unlimited-ride metrocard. But I would much rather go shopping at the store that's a five minute walk away than one that requires 30 minutes on the subway, even though the latter offers many more options. I increasingly order products online instead of doing either.

To where are people driving that makes these longer trips worth their while?

Post reply on HN