What We Learned from a Year of Americans ‘Risking It’ Without Insurance • Hacker News Board

Re: What We Learned from a Year of Americans ‘Risking It’ Without Insurance

#21

Post by josho » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 9:25 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #7

I've tried to understand the circumstances preventing socialized medicine in america. I understand there are arguments against socialized medicine, but they make no sense to me on their face (eg. the idea that long wait times would occur, when wait times for USA and wait times for other first world countries with socialized medicine isn't very differe. The idea that socialized medicine would cause less medicine resea…

> circumstances preventing socialized medicine in america

Honestly I think it has a lot to do with the popularity of Fox News and its bias against any centrist/left policy. Also, keep in mind that the US was for decades fighting a war against communism which branded any socialist idea as evil and even going so far as to overthrow socialist governments. So, there are decades of propaganda that needs to be overcome.

In fact I think we have the millennials to thank as they grew up after the cold war and did not experience much of the propaganda that older generations did, so they are more open to policies like universal healthcare.

edit: quickly downvoted? If you disagree that's fine, but at least share what you think I've got wrong.

Re: What We Learned from a Year of Americans ‘Risking It’ Without Insurance

#22

Post by baddox » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 9:26 PM UTC

jmalicki wrote: post #13

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #7

I've tried to understand the circumstances preventing socialized medicine in america. I understand there are arguments against socialized medicine, but they make no sense to me on their face (eg. the idea that long wait times would occur, when wait times for USA and wait times for other first world countries with socialized medicine isn't very differe. The idea that socialized medicine would cause less medicine resea…

What do you mean by socialized medicine? If you mean government required and subsidized, like the systems of France and Germany, which have great healthcare systems, that sounds wonderful . If you mean single-payer healthcare, like Canada and the UK, screw that disaster.

Disaster compared to what? The insane number of medical bankruptcies in the United States?

Re: What We Learned from a Year of Americans ‘Risking It’ Without Insurance

#23

Post by Futurebot » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 9:27 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #7

I've tried to understand the circumstances preventing socialized medicine in america. I understand there are arguments against socialized medicine, but they make no sense to me on their face (eg. the idea that long wait times would occur, when wait times for USA and wait times for other first world countries with socialized medicine isn't very differe. The idea that socialized medicine would cause less medicine resea…

The real arguments only rarely get stated by politicians, and it's the reason we don't get other universal services, either. It's ideological. The economic efficiency, competency, or access arguments (government can't do anything right, it's wasteful, etc.) while they do get used (and are certainly believed to various degrees) aren't the core (cultural) reasons. They are a belief that:

- society should be dog eat dog, red and tooth and claw, and that the weak and sick should merely die. Not only is that not bad, it's desirable, as the weak and sick bring down the rest and having them disappear strengthens the society / species

- the world should be every-man-for-himself, that you should be on your own, and never expect anyone to help you outside of blood relatives, or if you're lucky, charity.

- that everything must be "earned," discounting the ideas that it's society itself and all of its trappings (trade rules, police, roads, availability of skilled workers trained with public money, etc.) that's allow said money to be earned in the first place. If you don't earn it you don't deserve it, regardless of what that means for you.

- that government should simply not be in the business of providing services, period. It should exist only as a nightwatchman state that protects from "force and fraud" when it applies to domestic policies (empire building and maintenance + policies to further theocracy and political chauvinism are a big divide over spending on the right)

- taxation is theft. If one "earns" money, one should be able to keep basically all of it (minus force+fraud taxes, though ancaps don't even want that one.)

Now, mind you, this doesn't actually reflect the will of people in the US (recent poll links: https://twitter.com/GunnelsWarren/status/1078510910317174785), but large parts of the right-wing establishment (many of which inhabit the Democratic party, not just the Republican one.) This includes large donors, corporations, and powerful think tanks.

One thing that has to be understood about the US, is that since its very founding, it has largely opposed redistribution (the General Welfare clause notwithstanding.) People should remember Madison:

"Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests, and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority."

Re: What We Learned from a Year of Americans ‘Risking It’ Without Insurance

#24

Post by devereaux » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 9:28 PM UTC

TheLuddite wrote: post #15

devereaux wrote: post #12

I have the best insurance money can buy: a plane ticket to %anycountry (business class if needed) Cost of emergency endoscopic shoulder surgery in a private for-profit hospital in France, when totally uninsured, and paying by credit card: 1900 Eur - including anesthesiologist fee, surgeon fee, facility fee, radiology, drugs, private room etc. So around $2200 total, done the same day, after being arranged by phone. It…

That's a good idea, but what if you cannot travel because of your health?

Not travelling because of some pain? Painkillers + business class.

Not travelling because I'm unconscious or in a critical condition? Foreign insurance + air repatriation.

Some countries do sell that, even to non residents. Just get world coverage - it's a bit more than $70, but if something bad happen, you get med evac'ed to that country and treated there.

I'm exploring that option as I discover the wonder of medical tourism.

Re: What We Learned from a Year of Americans ‘Risking It’ Without Insurance

#25

Post by onychomys » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 9:28 PM UTC

devereaux wrote: post #12

I have the best insurance money can buy: a plane ticket to %anycountry (business class if needed) Cost of emergency endoscopic shoulder surgery in a private for-profit hospital in France, when totally uninsured, and paying by credit card: 1900 Eur - including anesthesiologist fee, surgeon fee, facility fee, radiology, drugs, private room etc. So around $2200 total, done the same day, after being arranged by phone. It…

It's going to be rough on you if you're hit by a car in Chicago and you only have insurance in France. There's a world of difference between emergency endoscopic surgery and a trip to the ED (or ER, or A&E, or whatever your country calls it).

Re: What We Learned from a Year of Americans ‘Risking It’ Without Insurance

#26

Post by baddox » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 9:31 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #14

will4274 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our government is busted. In many cases, it fails to function at all. Thousands of regulations, which are effectively laws, switch back and forth every time the president changes. Both parties blame the other and some independents blame both parties. We have become, as a society, incapable of forming and abiding to compromises. Our healthcare is a shit show, but it's not nearly as much of a shit show as our governmen…

I agree that the government is busted. But from what I understand, one of the two ruling parties is at least somewhat pro-socialized medicine. I do not understand what needs to be compromised about socialized medicine. I struggle with the idea that fear of the government is greater than the desire for universal medical coverage.

Eh, the two ruling parties have cleverly worked things out so that they never have to actually implement any of the policies they claim to support. They can always just blame the other party for making their policies impossible. Both parties benefit from this system.

Look at Obamacare. A lot of Democrats will say that this was a genuine attempt to move toward single-payer, a public option, etc. and that they simply had to make compromises to get what they got passed (a change that undoubtedly helps many people but does so with a regressive tax, and certainly doesn’t simplify anything).

Re: What We Learned from a Year of Americans ‘Risking It’ Without Insurance

#27

Post by maxxxxx » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 9:31 PM UTC

mokus wrote: post #20

maxxxxx wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medicare works pretty well. Just expand it.

In the formula “just do X”, the problem isn’t so much the “X”, it’s the “do”, for the reasons outlined by the GP comment. In this particular case, the notion that Medicare works at all (let alone well) is a point that about half the country will not concede because it’s one of many a shibboleth that keeps the “sides” at each other’s throats.

"In this particular case, the notion that Medicare works at all (let alone well) is a point that about half the country will not concede because it’s one of many a shibboleth that keeps the “sides” at each other’s throats. "

One half will throw a fit no matter what gets done. It would be interesting if Trump suddenly announced support for single payer Medicare for all. Republicans would think it's the best thing ever and Democrats would suddenly be against it...

Way too much blind ideology in this country. Before I came here I thought the US is a pragmatic country that gets things done but now I see that leadership can't even agree on a shared perception of reality. When you talk to right wingers or left wingers you don't even recognize that they are in the same country.

Re: What We Learned from a Year of Americans ‘Risking It’ Without Insurance

#28

Post by standerman » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 9:32 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #7

I've tried to understand the circumstances preventing socialized medicine in america. I understand there are arguments against socialized medicine, but they make no sense to me on their face (eg. the idea that long wait times would occur, when wait times for USA and wait times for other first world countries with socialized medicine isn't very differe. The idea that socialized medicine would cause less medicine resea…

The people that own insurance companies would become less wealthy. The industries (the 6 companies that own the majority of the media industry https://www.morriscreative.com/6-corporations-control-90-of-... ) that rely on the revenue from all the insurance ads would suffer. There's a decent amount of jobs created by all the inefficiency. Overall it's a boost to the US economy, but at the cost of immense suffering from those who are most vulnerable.

Re: What We Learned from a Year of Americans ‘Risking It’ Without Insurance

#29

Post by heydonovan » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 9:32 PM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #4

This might be a bit of a tangent, but I'll throw in my perspective as one of those who has been "risking it" for the last 4 months or so. (I won't go into why I'm risking it unless asked) I think it's difficult for a lot of people to justify paying a lot for things that don't provide much of a tangible/measurable benefit. Ideally, insurance would cover a person if something catastrophic happens, but otherwise it's di…

I know this has to do with health insurance, but I feel the same with auto insurance as well. It still feels like burning money. For example, I've been paying about $120/month for car insurance since I was 18, give or take. Never been in an accident. That's about $14k I've given to an insurance company for literally doing nothing.

Re: What We Learned from a Year of Americans ‘Risking It’ Without Insurance

#30

Post by EamonnMR » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 9:32 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #7

I've tried to understand the circumstances preventing socialized medicine in america. I understand there are arguments against socialized medicine, but they make no sense to me on their face (eg. the idea that long wait times would occur, when wait times for USA and wait times for other first world countries with socialized medicine isn't very differe. The idea that socialized medicine would cause less medicine resea…

It's almost a religious issue in the US, sort of like gun ownership.