Even if a lot of programming gets commoditised, I think that would still be a white collar job, not a blue collar one. But, of course, calling it "blue collar" can make for a better title.
The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)
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Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)
#52No, it really super isn't. Look, I'm all for teaching CS/programming to toddlers through people in their 90s - but the blunt, brutal reality is that not everyone can do this work . Full stop. That does not make programming a good candidate for widespread, blue-collar work.
Frameworks will eventually turn most jobs we do now into low-skill office jobs. Maybe not WordPress 6.0, but WordPress 10.0 certainly will be easy enough for just about anybody to use. We won't call them programmers, but they'll be doing all the jobs we used to do, if we're lucky enough to have moved up. Just how like tasks that used to be done by doctors are now done by nurses, and tasks that used to be done by lawy…
I usually am hampered by frameworks, too limiting, I work better with free to form code and as self contained as possible libraries with flexible "do one thing well" responsabilities
Frameworks probably only make some specific things easier? But given the choice between spending an hour fighting against a framework, or an hour solving the same problem with more elegant tools, the latter is so much more useful in both result and what you learn from it.
Where does the above style fit in?
Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)
#53Doubt it. For whatever reason, it seems like the way of thinking required for even simple programming doesn’t come naturally to most people. I saw this with a bunch of kids I went through nearly CS classes with. People who could not wrap their heads around pointers or reference semantics. People who didn’t get polymorphism and seemingly couldn’t no matter how many times you went through it with them. People who could…
Actual logical thinking doesn't come naturally to anyone. Look at symbolic logic classes in Universities and how much people struggle with that. You only get good at it by doing it a lot and banging your head against the wall sometimes. Most people would do just fine with programming if you frame it the right way for them. We are already used to working within constraints.
My theory is that we have a personality dimension related to "tolerance for being wrong"
In 'real life' we're ultra careful about implying, let alone proving people are wrong. Considered by most to be highly insulting! And showing someone they're wrong is often interpreted as disrespectful.
On the receiving side, it's common to hate the feeling of being wrong and deny reality itself when the feeling comes around.
All of these common cultural assumptions and potentially biological traits are deeply at odds with programming.
Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)
#54"But any blue-collar coder will be plenty qualified to sling JavaScript for their local bank. " Even highly trained software engineers can barely get security correct. What makes this journalist think somebody with a few years of high school programming can do any better? I'm not sure I buy the "blue collar coder" prediction. At least not in the US. That type of work is currently outsourced to India and parts of Eas…
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Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)
#55"But any blue-collar coder will be plenty qualified to sling JavaScript for their local bank."
I stopped reading there.
Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)
#56Doubt it. For whatever reason, it seems like the way of thinking required for even simple programming doesn’t come naturally to most people. I saw this with a bunch of kids I went through nearly CS classes with. People who could not wrap their heads around pointers or reference semantics. People who didn’t get polymorphism and seemingly couldn’t no matter how many times you went through it with them. People who could…
Also, I’ve seen smart people just not have the patience required to work on programs. There’s a level of pain tolerance required for debugging, for example, that some people just can’t handle - or don’t want to.
Agreed. The patience comes from actual interest. Few people if any just sit down and code a whole program from start to finish without hitting any bumps. A person's tolerance for dealing with those bumps will determine if they can be a programmer or not. No matter how smart someone might be, there comes a point where they will have to grind out a solution to a problem. That means sitting in the front of the compute for hours with seemingly no progress. That is challenging for many people.
Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)
#57Bootcamps I swear train cargo cult programmers. It may work for some, but in my experience they lack the understanding of why they are typing what they are typing. They can go through the motions of what they've been trained to do, but they get stuck extremely easily and have no idea how to help themselves. So then when you start explaining why their program does not work, their eyes glaze over when you start talking…
This, I often find people unable to debug more complex issues because they have no real understanding of what the computer is doing, it's a black box to them.
Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)
#58Doubt it. For whatever reason, it seems like the way of thinking required for even simple programming doesn’t come naturally to most people. I saw this with a bunch of kids I went through nearly CS classes with. People who could not wrap their heads around pointers or reference semantics. People who didn’t get polymorphism and seemingly couldn’t no matter how many times you went through it with them. People who could…
What I saw in college was a lot of people dropping out of the Computer Science track for the Information Technology track, because they wanted to learn about computers and the business surrounding them.
The early CS classes were about pointers, iteration, conditionals, and other things they had 0 interest in.
I think it takes a specific kind of personality to be interested in this stuff, and it’s not something that most people would enjoy doing as a job, contrary to what articles like this want us to believe.
Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
It wouldn't surprise me. They cram a ton of material into a handful of greuling rushed weeks. Then again apparently many if not most devs leave college with a four year CS degree and can't code either, so maybe it's just a reflection of typical ability.
The point of a CS degree isn't to teach you to code. Also the amount of time spent in class is roughly equivalent between a 4 year CS degree and a rigorous, full-time bootcamp. 2 hrs of class, 4 days/week, 28 weeks/year in most universities vs. ~10 hrs/day, 6 days/week over 13-17 weeks in bootcamps.
The point of a CS degree is to make you give them money. That's it.
Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)
#60"But any blue-collar coder will be plenty qualified to sling JavaScript for their local bank. " Even highly trained software engineers can barely get security correct. What makes this journalist think somebody with a few years of high school programming can do any better? I'm not sure I buy the "blue collar coder" prediction. At least not in the US. That type of work is currently outsourced to India and parts of Eas…
“Even highly trained software engineers can barely get security correct. What makes this journalist think somebody with a few years of high school programming can do any better?” Why would they have to be better? You just made very point here. Some high schooler with a boot camp can do just as well as many “highly trained software engineers”.
First, why don't we fix the cost of medical care by letting vocational schools train doctors? After all, there are high-profile medical errors and the world goes on.
(In case the sarcasm isn't obvious, my point is that the existence of errors by professionals doesn't mean the entire system would be just as good if staffed by non-professionals.)