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Hospital prices are about to go public in the U.S.

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Re: Hospital prices are about to go public in the U.S.

#311

Post by conanbatt »

alkonaut wrote: post #298
conanbatt wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have public hospitals that are tax funded and private hospitals, you will see that private hospitals will only provide profitable services (cardian, neuro, etc) and give all loss patients to public hospitals (psychiatry, managed care, etc). Public hospitals will have a unreasonable burden of high-cost patients.

I think you misunderstood: anyone who uses private would do so while also paying for a full public health insurance. That is, the public system is fully funded regardless of whether anyone wants to operate private hospitals.

Ah, that would make healthcare a lot more expensive, making people pay twice for the same service.

Re: Hospital prices are about to go public in the U.S.

#312

Post by jlebar »

antisthenes wrote: post #301
jlebar wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Do you live a perfect life? Do you exercise daily? Do you never eat processed meat (linked to cancer)? Do you never drink soda (linked to metabolic syndrome)? Do you not smoke? Do you not drink any alcohol (linked to cancer)? Do you live close to your work so as to minimize the time spent in a car (car accidents are a major cause of preventable death)? Are you not overweight, even a little? And so o…

> Do you think that someone who follows all but one of those rules still deserves healthcare? All but two? What's the moral difference between someone who smokes and someone who hasn't taken heed of diet/exercise advice after getting heart surgery? Yes. Yes. Moral difference no idea, but neither one should expect to have society foot the entire bill for their bad habits. > Where do you draw the line? Probably around…

> Probably around morbid obesity that's unrelated to genetic/chronic issues.

The jury is still very much out on how common this is, isn't it? Who is going to make the decision of whether I am "at fault" for my obesity?

Also how many people actually choose to be morbidly obese? Like, suppose I am genetically predisposed to like "unhealthy foods" (scare quotes because we don't really know what that means). Does that excuse my obesity as genetically caused? How are you going to tell the difference between someone who "selfishly likes" unhealthy foods and someone who can't help themselves? More to the point, is there a difference?

> By setting an unreasonable standard and saying no one under it has the ability to cast judgment is extremely anti-intellectual. If 2 people were telling you about health habits and one of them was an olympic athlete (who occasionally ate bacon), and the other was a random overweight person from the street, whose advice would you give more weight to?

In the face of this claim that my argument is anti-intellectual, I think I get to be pedantic and say that this counter-argument is a straw-person and equivocates.

I am saying that I don't think an Olympic athelete should pass moral judgement on other people. But of course an expert can pass intellectual judgment on ideas (e.g. "candy is healthy").

I can't believe I'm here as an athiest defending Jesus, but there you go. :)

Re: Hospital prices are about to go public in the U.S.

#313

Post by xzel »

QuantumGood wrote: post #135
mwerd wrote: post #133

This won't help consumers. The prices (both charges and what Medicare pays) are already effectively public: https://data.cms.gov/Medicare-Physician-Supplier/Medicare-Pr... The problem, as some other comments point out, is that they're way too complicated. The link I posted, for example, is just the provider charges. A hospital visit typically has a facility claim and at least one provider claim. Depending on the type…

As I noted below ($25 vs. $1400 for my sore shoulder), the range of ways providers can "code" what they charge you for is not sane. And how my inpatient bill in a different situation reached ~$45,000 was clearly because the hospital knew how to pad the bill.

And in fact I'd say medical coding is a boarder line predatory practice. There are a number of companies that specialize in padding / inflating medical codes against insurance companies for hospitals (or fighting them etc). It is just another inefficiency in the current system costing everyone more money.

Re: Hospital prices are about to go public in the U.S.

#314

Post by alkonaut »

conanbatt wrote: post #311
alkonaut wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstood: anyone who uses private would do so while also paying for a full public health insurance. That is, the public system is fully funded regardless of whether anyone wants to operate private hospitals.

Ah, that would make healthcare a lot more expensive, making people pay twice for the same service.

Yes - it makes private insurance an added luxury product. This is normally how it works where there is a publicly funded universal system. On the other hand the public insurance covers many expensive things very well (e.g cancer treatment) so the private insurance is for things like getting a knee surgery without waiting time where the public system can have 90 days waiting time. Someone like an athlete wouldn’t want to wait that long but for most people it’s acceptable if it keeps premiums (taxes) lower.

The “paying twice for the same thing” is a feature, not a bug. Most people wouldn’t do that of course, meaning they would simply get rid of their private insurance.

Re: Hospital prices are about to go public in the U.S.

#315

Post by conanbatt »

PenguinCoder wrote: post #252
alehul wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just out of curiosity: have you tried calling your insurance to ask them where you should go? I haven't either, and have generally gone by your route of asking the hospital whether it will be insured, but I'd imagine calling insurance (if a feasible option?) would provide a lower rate of error.

The patient shouldn't have to call the insurance provider to see where it is accepted. This is adding to the problem. Do you have insurance, yes or no? Should be a good he only question not add-ons like, what provider, etc. It's stupid as hell that certain doctors are in network at a hospital while others are out of network, at the same damn facility. Ask me how I know this. American Healthcare insurance and billing…

> The patient shouldn't have to call the insurance provider to see where it is accepted

But this is actually the one that provides the service. You dont call the music band to ask about the prices ticketek charges. You should and can ask about the price without insurance and you might get an answer (though you wont like it).

Re: Hospital prices are about to go public in the U.S.

#316

Post by conanbatt »

alkonaut wrote: post #314
conanbatt wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, that would make healthcare a lot more expensive, making people pay twice for the same service.

Yes - it makes private insurance an added luxury product. This is normally how it works where there is a publicly funded universal system. On the other hand the public insurance covers many expensive things very well (e.g cancer treatment) so the private insurance is for things like getting a knee surgery without waiting time where the public system can have 90 days waiting time. Someone like an athlete wouldn’t want…

It makes it inefficient in economic terms. I think you are attempting to frame it in terms of cost-shifting: making the "rich" pay for "the poor" by paying twice.

But when the public hospital is 10 miles away, and the private hospital is 1 mile away, paying twice effectively lowers the access of care to the people that can't afford to pay twice.

And then, proximity to public hospitals would be so valuable, that housing prices would icnrease close to the best public hospitals, and the richer will again take profit of it, just like it happens with zone-dependent schools.

Re: Hospital prices are about to go public in the U.S.

#317

Post by antisthenes »

jlebar wrote: post #312
antisthenes wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think that someone who follows all but one of those rules still deserves healthcare? All but two? What's the moral difference between someone who smokes and someone who hasn't taken heed of diet/exercise advice after getting heart surgery? Yes. Yes. Moral difference no idea, but neither one should expect to have society foot the entire bill for their bad habits. > Where do you draw the line? Probably around…

> Probably around morbid obesity that's unrelated to genetic/chronic issues. The jury is still very much out on how common this is, isn't it? Who is going to make the decision of whether I am "at fault" for my obesity? Also how many people actually choose to be morbidly obese? Like, suppose I am genetically predisposed to like "unhealthy foods" (scare quotes because we don't really know what that means). Does that ex…

> Also how many people actually choose to be morbidly obese? Like, suppose I am genetically predisposed to like "unhealthy foods" (scare quotes because we don't really know what that means). Does that excuse my obesity as genetically caused? How are you going to tell the difference between someone who "selfishly likes" unhealthy foods and someone who can't help themselves? More to the point, is there a difference?

I'm sorry but this is insane. Are we just abolishing any notion of personal responsibility whatsoever? I can't and won't argue from that first principle so we're going to have to disagree here fundamentally.

What if I can't help myself but grope women? What if I'm genetically predisposed to violence? Or kleptomania? Those things also impose a heavy cost on society, but if I just can't help myself, am I really at fault?

> How are you going to tell the difference between someone who "selfishly likes" unhealthy foods and someone who can't help themselves? More to the point, is there a difference?

Of course there's a difference. If your willpower is not sufficient to correct your obesity, then you should take other, more radical steps that do. And if you don't, then you're just selfishly externalizing your problems to society.

> But of course an expert can pass intellectual judgment on ideas (e.g. "candy is healthy")

Good, at least we can agree on something. So to answer the first part of your post, you should ask an expert on obesity. I'm not one, so if their judgment differs from mine, I'll stand corrected. But until then, I'll be of the opinion that most obesity cases are not genetic.

Re: Hospital prices are about to go public in the U.S.

#318

Post by philwelch »

karmelapple wrote: post #195

I was in a hospital in Singapore recently, and the prices for doctor consultation fees, staying in a room, and even certain tests were listed right at the front of the emergency room desk. After the patient I was with was stabilized, the nurse confirmed with us verbally what the rough cost should be for the rest of what the doctor prescribed, and asked if we wished to proceed. We could have said no and gone elsewhere…

It is if you're a pet. This is exactly how my veterinary visits go.

Re: Hospital prices are about to go public in the U.S.

#319

Post by philwelch »

jlebar wrote: post #292
miketery wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in principal to an extent - however economics need to be tied to the end product somewhat. Otherwise many people would opt for $100k healthcare cost (at the expense of the public) to extend their life for a few more months, this is not reasonable. Resources are finite - therefore we need appropriate allocation. In the end I agree that a basic safety net is necessary and serves a greater good - providing thing…

Serious question: Do you live a perfect life? Do you exercise daily? Do you never eat processed meat (linked to cancer)? Do you never drink soda (linked to metabolic syndrome)? Do you not smoke? Do you not drink any alcohol (linked to cancer)? Do you live close to your work so as to minimize the time spent in a car (car accidents are a major cause of preventable death)? Are you not overweight, even a little? And so o…

If you ask the public to subsidize your personal expenses, the public inherently has the right to set reasonable limits on that subsidy. If you want to be free from those limits, it's your responsibility to pay your own way.
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