Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body • Hacker News Board

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#91

Post by khazhoux » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 6:31 PM UTC

_8j50 wrote: post #70

khazhoux wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this an uncrossable line, though? Clearly this research is meant to be a first/early step towards preserving brains in the event of traumatic bodily injury. Is that not a worthwhile goal? Is it outweighed by some possible nefarious abuse of this technique? There are obviously major issues to work out still, but I don't see how else this research can advance but with animal experiments.

Because animal torture is considered unethical. If you don't agree that's fine. Let us at least agree the line is needed. We shouldn't be discussing this retroactively.

Please don't represent your debate opponents here as supporting "animal torture" -- that's horrible.

In this article there was no brain function at all.

As research progresses, it may be possible to establish brain activity without any pain sensation. One can debate whether being suddenly blind, deaf, and paralyzed rises to the level of animal abuse. And then, whether this is nonetheless worth the research benefits.

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#92

Post by perfmode » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 7:01 PM UTC

de_watcher wrote: post #69

perfmode wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious. What is your basis for determining that it is okay to do this to pigs? Could we also do this to dogs? Dolphins? Elephants? Monkeys?

What will we do when our technology gets to the level of the living things? Is it forbidden to reverse-engineer to get there faster?

See: substratism

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#93

Post by perfmode » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 7:02 PM UTC

matz1 wrote: post #65

perfmode wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious. What is your basis for determining that it is okay to do this to pigs? Could we also do this to dogs? Dolphins? Elephants? Monkeys?

For me, I drew the line at human and non human. I'm okay to do anything to non human.

Do you have any interest in how we structure our societal laws and standards? Or do you prefer the laissez fairy approach to morality?

Edit: meant to say laissez-faire but I prefer fairy

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#94

Post by berbec » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 7:25 PM UTC

deytempo wrote: post #20

berbec wrote: post #8

The terrifying implications of this tech makes me shudder. Science fiction has beaten me to considering the potential for abuse. I'm picturing Hyperion meets Brainship with some Altered Carbon thrown in. It hurts my brain even to contemplate.

Yea, like you could end up disembodied in a laboratory hell with no way to scream for help

They just wire up your pain receptors, ears and mouth. Mute your mouth, and ears and set pain to 10. Wait an hour and then ask you if you're willing to talk yet. Repeat until your break.

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#95

Post by matz1 » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 7:56 PM UTC

perfmode wrote: post #93

matz1 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, I drew the line at human and non human. I'm okay to do anything to non human.

Do you have any interest in how we structure our societal laws and standards? Or do you prefer the laissez fairy approach to morality? Edit: meant to say laissez-faire but I prefer fairy

Not really, in term of morality, I'm more inline to this idea https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_egoism

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#96

Post by filoeleven » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 8:35 PM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #26

jobigoud wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet is done everyday for food production.

Sometimes it happens as a side-effect of cost-cutting, but it's not desired. The goal is to have animals wander around a barn/field for months to years and then get instantly killed before being cut up.

It’s not “sometimes,” it’s “mostly.”

> In the U.S., according to its National Pork Producers Council, 80 million of its 95 million pigs slaughtered each year are reared in industrial settings. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intensive_animal_farming#Con...

> pigs are placed in a crate made of iron bars that is the exact length and width of their bodies, so they can do nothing for their entire lives but stand on a concrete floor, never turn around, never see any outdoors, never even see their tails, never move more than an inch.

Much more disturbing text and images can be found at the source: https://theintercept.com/2017/10/05/factory-farms-fbi-missin...

And that’s only for pigs. Conditions are no better for chickens or cows at factory farms.

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#97

Post by filoeleven » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 8:52 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #57

kortilla wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of everyone in the meat company all of the way to the consumer. Nobody wants the animals to suffer (outside the portion of psychopaths present in all industries).

How so? If that were true, we'd see factory farms lobbying for stronger laws against animal cruelty, to prevent competitors that do not care about animals from forcing everyone into the current state of things. Truth is, a lot of people - inside and outside - just don't care. Ceteris paribus, they'd prefer animals to have happy lives, but that preference is outweighed by needs of convenience, profit, human healthcare…

> How so? If that were true, we'd see factory farms lobbying for stronger laws against animal cruelty

Right. And instead they throw their weight behind ag-gag laws, which criminalize whistleblowing on factory farms.

I think that way more people outside than inside do care, it’s just that you have to go seeking this information yourself to find out much, and it’s highly disturbing stuff. So without loud voices pushing people to confront the issue,it’s easy to remain willfully ignorant.

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#98

Post by badminton1 » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 9:24 PM UTC

torgian wrote: post #73

badminton1 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Others have already touched upon a few other points in your argument, but quite frankly, intelligence is not a good metric. And neither is a creature's ability to measure morality. Do we know how a pig measures morals? Do we know how to measure a pig's awareness? To an extent, we can measure a pig's intelligence, but is it simply 'doing what is repeated over and over' or is there actual understanding of the why behin…

If theory of mind is the issue, some pigs display some attributes that could be interpeted as theory of mind.

In any case, your argument fell apart because there is no metric you can pick to justify what we do to animals other than: it is wrong but it is the least of evils right now (from a legal standpoint), which is different to "humans are more important than pigs".

Your argument is a slippery slope that leads to very dark places: can the rich experiment on the poor?, can we experiment on the disabled or mentally ill?... if being "important" justifies abuse, we would live in a world of abuse.

That is important because when simulations can solve the problem, we could outlaw experimentation in-vivo.

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#99

Post by _8j50 » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 10:51 PM UTC

khazhoux wrote: post #91

_8j50 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because animal torture is considered unethical. If you don't agree that's fine. Let us at least agree the line is needed. We shouldn't be discussing this retroactively.

Please don't represent your debate opponents here as supporting "animal torture" -- that's horrible. In this article there was no brain function at all. As research progresses, it may be possible to establish brain activity without any pain sensation. One can debate whether being suddenly blind, deaf, and paralyzed rises to the level of animal abuse. And then, whether this is nonetheless worth the research benefits.

That's exactly my point,is there a law that defines what constitutes enough brain functionality to classify this as torture.

This isn't about you or anyone else supporting animal torture,don't imply my saying things I did not. This is about clearly defining what constitutes animal torture and unethical practices are and implementing most severe of consequences for those who cross it.

The debate is need for a clearly defined line and consequences,not where it should be drawn.

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#100

Post by thefounder » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 11:50 PM UTC

tertius wrote: post #63

thefounder wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we eat the pigs so doing some science experiments on them should be acceptable considering we have so many food alternatives and still eat pigs. I believe people who eat dogs don't see an issue with dog experiments.

I'll take cows as an example as I don't eat pig... If the meat I buy is from someone who mutilated the cow and optimized for maximum pain in the death of the cow then I would not buy that meat. So there is a spectrum here. Just because we kill animals for food does not mean that it's ethical along the rest of the spectrum of harm.

What if the "mutilated" cow would save your life or just fix a small health issue(i.e backpain)? Would you still accept the procedure? We test on animals so that we don't have to test on us(first). I find using animals for science experiments(even if they are painful) more ethical than killing them for their good taste. If you replace the animals with humans (eating vs experiments) there is no question which one is more wrong.