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Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#131

Post by moate »

coldtea wrote: post #109
mr_overalls wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few hundred years ago, men in many countries were allowed to beat their wives and children with few restrictions. Need I also mention that slavery and child labor were legal? Historical legacy is absolutely no rationale for continuing to cause needless suffering in intelligent beings.

Who is to say what is "needless"?

Dictionary does a pretty good job. "Not Needed. Unnecessary."

There's a pretty valid point to be made that you don't NEED to eat whale meat. Or Cow meat. Or any meat really. There are economically available options in most areas that would allow for a nutritionally balanced, vegetarian (possibly vegan) diet.

This is specifically true about a developed nation like Japan.

There's counterpoints to be made (not all farm land is suitable for crop farming, so using it for husbandry is valuable; a complete one day flip without a slow phase out of meat would be economically devastating; freedom to eat animals is my right, etc) but you can't really say you NEED to do it. Science and nutrition doesn't back that up, and the economics are hazy at best.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#132

Post by LeifCarrotson »

maxxxxx wrote: post #38

I don't even eat meat but I find it difficult to be angry about this when at the same time at home we have millions (billions?) of farm animals live in absolutely terrible conditions. Reminds me a little of the outrage in CA about horse meat. There are plenty of people who think eating horse meat is morally wrong while at the same time they eat some salad with bacon on top. Why is a horse better than a pig? Certainly…

I don't think the most effective argument against whaling comes from concerns about their suffering. Same with horse meat.

That would be persuasive to some vegans and vegetarians, but they represent a small subset of the population.

A much larger group will respond well to concerns about their extinction. I want my son, and someday my son's kids (if he has any) and their kids to be able to go whale watching. I don't want them to go to school and learn about extinct species that my generation wantonly destroyed.

Unfortunately, this common desire runs afoul of other cultural activities that a few small minorities want to maintain: they want to follow their parents, and allow their kids to follow them, in hunting and eating whale.

A question for you: the banana tree is at risk of extinction, many historical variants have been pushed out of existence by massive cultivation of sterile farmed varieties. Blight, disease, and other issues put this large population of identical plants at risk.

The difference between the whaling problem and the banana problem is that bananas don't have the ability to experience suffering[citation needed]. Do you think it would be meritorious to advocate for the preservation, cultivation, and careful stewardship of bananas?

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#133

Post by maxxxxx »

d0100 wrote: post #106
maxxxxx wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" I don't think this is a fair comparison because we breed these animals for farming, so technically we could breed as many as we need to sustain our habits." They still suffer greatly. Maybe a little extreme but by the same logic we could breed humans for slavery and say that it's OK because they got bred for it. "commercial farming of whales will cause the extinction of whales. " Not if done with proper quotas. It'…

> Maybe a little extreme but by the same logic we could breed humans for slavery and say that it's OK because they got bred for it. The day an animal can articulate that, I'll agree with you. Until then such comparison bears no meaning.

"The day an animal can articulate that, I'll agree with you."

They can if you keep your eyes open just a little.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#135

Post by malvosenior »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #128
malvosenior wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it's a serious question. Many people love meat and it's a staple part of their diet (as has been the case with humans for all of humanity). As for India, you may want to update your numbers: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpellmanrowland/2017/12/1...

None of your statements strengthen your argument. Many people also love it when other people are forced to work for them for free and it was the basis of the economic systems of many societies for centuries. Yet somehow we've managed to survive and thrive without large scale slavery. As to your comment on India, no one is arguing that meat doesn't taste good or that most people don't like to eat it. But whether the n…

Comparing eating meat with slavery is exactly why people won't stop eating meat. It's impossible to take such an argument seriously.

> no one is arguing that meat doesn't taste good or that most people don't like to eat it.

That's pretty much the final word on the subject. People will never stop eating meat. It's part of being human (yes some humans don't do it, but we are omnivores).

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#136

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

tomp wrote: post #130
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a serious question? As one small example, the 500 million or so vegetarians in India seem to do just fine.

Surely if killing animals is wrong, so is exploiting them for eggs and milk? So the only moral option (currently available, in the absence of lab-grown meat) is veganism, which is deadly (it's missing some B vitamin I think).

> Surely if killing animals is wrong, so is exploiting them for eggs and milk?

Prefacing an argument with "surely" doesn't make it a stronger argument. I don't see why it follows at all that raising animals for eggs or milk could not be done humanely.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#137

Post by kristofferR »

pmden wrote: post #92
kristofferR wrote: post #44

What's a sustainable level of whaling? Whale beef is totally delicious, but I'm wondering if Norways catch is sustainable and I can continue to enjoy it.

Is there anything you could compare it to, for people who haven't had the chance? I'm vaguely aware the postwar British government promoted corned whale meat an unrationed alternative to normal meats, and that it (unsurprisingly) tasted quite like corned beef.

It tastes like a good steak, just with more umami and tenderness and perhaps a slight hint of fish oil, depending on how it's prepared. There's also something about its deep dark red wine color that feels luxurious.

It's easy to avoiding the fish oil taste of you're careful.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#138

Post by dawnerd »

ajmurmann wrote: post #35
wolco wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that would be an over reaction that will harm more than it helps. Controls are important but stop all legal fishing is not the answer.

For years I tried to only buy "sustainable" fish. It's almost impossible. Different lists give you different criteria. So much fish is endangered. So much fishing happens in ways that fish that's not even desired gets caught and thrown back in dead. Worth, some fishing techniques even damage the sea bed itself. On top of that most fish in stores is mislabeled making it downright impossible to enjoy fish without ruini…

That’s why I don’t eat fish or any product containing fish. Simply can’t trust it.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#139

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

malvosenior wrote: post #135
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of your statements strengthen your argument. Many people also love it when other people are forced to work for them for free and it was the basis of the economic systems of many societies for centuries. Yet somehow we've managed to survive and thrive without large scale slavery. As to your comment on India, no one is arguing that meat doesn't taste good or that most people don't like to eat it. But whether the n…

Comparing eating meat with slavery is exactly why people won't stop eating meat. It's impossible to take such an argument seriously. > no one is arguing that meat doesn't taste good or that most people don't like to eat it. That's pretty much the final word on the subject. People will never stop eating meat. It's part of being human (yes some humans don't do it, but we are omnivores).

> It's impossible to take such an argument seriously.

Why? It seems you are exactly proving my point: you've compartmentalized one as "ok cause we like it and do it now" and the other as "evil because it's bad and we don't do it anymore", but provide no argument as to why they are logically so incomparable. And your "final word on the subject" is apparently "meat tastes good and people like it." Forgive me if I'm not pursuaded by your "logic".

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#140

Post by hjek »

coldtea wrote: post #105
sc4les wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm but it depends whether there is a victim involved or not IMHO

Sure, but one can say that for eating burgers too.

Exactly (if the burger is made of animal flesh, that is; but fortunately there are many other ways of making burgers).
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