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Buttery smooth Emacs (2016)

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Re: Buttery smooth Emacs (2016)

#31
Does this means that Emacs will now be usable on remote desktops such as x2go? It tends to close by itself and, if I remember correctly, it was related to some redrawing issue that, I hope, could be solved by this.

Re: Buttery smooth Emacs (2016)

#32

I use emacs and vim quite rarely, only when I see potential benefit of it. Both have some amazing features but also seems to be locked in stone age on IT. In my opinion this is most deterring for new user - not "steep learning curve". I wonder why they refuse to open their eyes to current (or at least 2000's) state of technology. They cling to ancient foundation of their programs as something unmovable and unchangeab…

I would also like to know what exactly you mean. I've heard similar rants before and usually it boils down to 1) non-standard shortcuts, i.e. not implementing CUA; 2) being built around a terminal rather than designed around the capabilities of a raster display and a mouse.

Emacs might actually get away with switching to CUA, it's already halfway there - you're always in "insert mode" and use Ctrl/Alt+letter for advanced operations. But rejiggering Emacs's shortcuts will alienate current users while probably not attracting many new ones. This is always a problem for a minority-use product - your users don't want to use "standard" software for whatever reason and just blindly chasing the majority will have you fall between two stools. Vi(m) probably can't be built around CUA principles. Its modal editing language is completely alien to what CUA is and while you can add a few bespoke shortcuts (I used to have ctrl+s for save), they usually stick out like a sore thumb (I switched to s because it was more natural). I would love to see someone try though, it might work out.

For the second point, I'm inclined to agree that we should be able to show information in a better way than a pure text buffer on screen. There are neovim shells built around Electron which I'm keeping an eye on, because those should allow for rich GUI controls to be easily created. Though it might actually be better to adopt something like Tk in vimscript to give plugins a very simple way of showing GUI components.

Parent was very rude, but they do raise the correct point that our editors were built in a different time and we could adopt modern principles to make them better. VSCode is probably this generation's Emacs.

Re: Buttery smooth Emacs (2016)

#33
post #30
post #24

IMO any "old enough" and complex enough software suffer some kind of "age&complexity" problems... No matter how you design it, unix choose simplicity and we see that today no real unix exists anymore (yes, they do exists per name, but in fact they do not follow unix principles), ITS, Emacs, LispM, Alto, ... choose integration and completeness and except Emacs they are essentially dead... Modern software try to choose…

I'm trying to parse your first paragraph. Isn't Unix entirely about modularity? And I suppose you could argue that emacs is a (os like) substrate that enables modularity on top of it. Theres an old joke, emacs is a nice OS, only lacking a decent text editor. Or are you referring to the actual code itself?

I think he's just saying that the Unix philosophy of hundreds of different programs that communicate with pipes lost out, for him, to everything in one address space communicating with data structures, which is what Emacs is. Emacs was derided for being the anti-Unix. It's a text editor... but it has a shell, and a calendar, and reads email? CRAZY. WRONG. But in reality, the Unix way is showing its age and Emacs was a solution ahead of its time.

Emacs as a computing environment is remarkably consistent across platforms. Say you write code, commit to a git repository, and run shell-like commands. Your Windows computer will look exactly like your Linux box if you use Emacs with magit and eshell for those operations. I personally kind of fell out of using a lot of Emacs's extras, and am constantly cursing the inconsistency between platforms.

But, to some extent, Emacs has failed even in that regard by depending a little too much on the host OS. As far as I can tell, there is no binary I can download for Windows that will let Emacs spell check anymore; the last time someone compiled aspell was in the early 2000s and the latest version of Emacs explicitly checks for that binary and tells you you can't use it, providing no alternative. The failure is not in packaging this for Windows, of course, but rather in allowing the OS to provide the spell checker. That should just be a lisp package! But alas, it is not. (You will also find this in other things. M-x rgrep is a favorite of mine on Unix-like systems. But on Windows, find.exe is not quite the "find" that find | grep is looking for, and it's kind of a pain to get your path setup to find the Unix version of find while in Emacs, and still let native windows programs get find.exe included with Windows.)

However, for those ambitious enough to decide to implement the functionality in pure Lisp... you get "write once run anywhere" which is quite enjoyable. (And was a thing before anyone ever coined the phrase "write once, run anywhere".)

Re: Buttery smooth Emacs (2016)

#35
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried Emacs via various hacks on Android... Mostly to have org-mode there... With a touch only UI it's not usable. With a physical keyboard I see ZERO reason to choose such crappy OS instead of a small ultrabook...

Check out the Gemini PDA. It's an Android mobile phone with a full keyboard. I have (and can recommend) the first version, but there is a new version in the works right now, the "Cosmo Communicator": https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cosmo-communicator#/

Great to see that the dream of the Nokia Internet Tablet lives on.

Re: Buttery smooth Emacs (2016)

#36
post #27
post #2

I was planning on taking on porting Emacs to the iPad, given that it's a fantastically fast, light and low-power modern portable computer. But reading this gave me pause, I'm not sure I can dedicate as much time to this as it seems will be necessary...

I tried Emacs via various hacks on Android... Mostly to have org-mode there... With a touch only UI it's not usable. With a physical keyboard I see ZERO reason to choose such crappy OS instead of a small ultrabook...

Emacs on Termux with Hacker's Keyboard is pretty usable. I've written (small amounts of) code with it; for Org note taking it will be fine, if not ideal.

Re: Buttery smooth Emacs (2016)

#37
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried Emacs via various hacks on Android... Mostly to have org-mode there... With a touch only UI it's not usable. With a physical keyboard I see ZERO reason to choose such crappy OS instead of a small ultrabook...

Check out the Gemini PDA. It's an Android mobile phone with a full keyboard. I have (and can recommend) the first version, but there is a new version in the works right now, the "Cosmo Communicator": https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cosmo-communicator#/

Thanks for the link, many try to promise such kind of "portable computer" but always fail so I do not think we will never arrive at such... Also I do not want Android or other crappy OSes, I want a damn real OS, that I can use and manage...

Honestly even if I dream such kind of devices I know rational that I will not really need them: I work/live in fixed place, I do not want to be nomad (well, If being nomad means with a starship around the universe maybe but not in the way I can have now), I do not want to "work from a beach" or on top of a mounting after a good climbing trip. I consider such model as modern slavery vested with a dummy shiny dress...

I'm a person, not a Ford-model human robot that voluntary tie myself to a device controlled by it's vendor.

Re: Buttery smooth Emacs (2016)

#38
post #30
post #24

IMO any "old enough" and complex enough software suffer some kind of "age&complexity" problems... No matter how you design it, unix choose simplicity and we see that today no real unix exists anymore (yes, they do exists per name, but in fact they do not follow unix principles), ITS, Emacs, LispM, Alto, ... choose integration and completeness and except Emacs they are essentially dead... Modern software try to choose…

I'm trying to parse your first paragraph. Isn't Unix entirely about modularity? And I suppose you could argue that emacs is a (os like) substrate that enables modularity on top of it. Theres an old joke, emacs is a nice OS, only lacking a decent text editor. Or are you referring to the actual code itself?

Sorry for my English, I'll try to be clear...

> Isn't Unix entirely about modularity?

No, unix goal is to provide a minimal "platform" that third party software may use as a "detached" base and interoperate via a simple, small and common IPC mechanism. Unix is essentially like a wagon to support any kind of boxes/pallets.

LispM, Alto workstations, ITS, Emacs do the opposite: the OS must not be for them a platform with a very basic set of API/IPC any software can use but a sole, single, integrated environment in witch any software live inside like a complex machine.

Unix was a success being simple because at that time using "unix-hater's OSes" was expensive, hard, to a point that you are totally tied to specific hw and you have to know many things to develop even a super-simple software. After however unix prove to be unable to evolve. Third party "giant frameworks" became a common thing, X with it libs etc is the most common example. Basic subset of functions and IPC can't compensate.

We do not develop ANYTHING serious anymore after that, Plan9 was probably the last tentative but never get completed enough...

I consider actual Emacs such as a small way to keep LispM alive, that suffer enormous limitation of not having hardware, bootloader a kernel to be a real OS however in today's tech status it offer the best way to operate on a desktop: everything is integrated through the most common things we know, text. It's status prove that idea is valid but so complex to accomplish completely that's practically failed. We simply can't sustain economically a LispMachine today.

Hope to be more clear now...

Re: Buttery smooth Emacs (2016)

#39
post #36
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried Emacs via various hacks on Android... Mostly to have org-mode there... With a touch only UI it's not usable. With a physical keyboard I see ZERO reason to choose such crappy OS instead of a small ultrabook...

Emacs on Termux with Hacker's Keyboard is pretty usable. I've written (small amounts of) code with it; for Org note taking it will be fine, if not ideal.

I tried it and give up, simply I slow to a point of feel frustration and hacker's keyboard is not comfortable for the rest of the phone usage.

Consider that on desktop I live in Emacs, I live with a keyboard (and struggle to find one modern that can really properly replace my ancient Sun type 6 with backlit as a bonus...).

My Android usage is simply:

- GPS when I travel

- mobile quick mail surveillance, not for writing only just to see incoming messages

- make/answer phone calls

- casual SMS usage

- casual reading of grocery list or similar notes (Orgzly)

nothing more. I can't imaging writing a mail, not even code with a touch crappyboard!!!

Re: Buttery smooth Emacs (2016)

#40
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to parse your first paragraph. Isn't Unix entirely about modularity? And I suppose you could argue that emacs is a (os like) substrate that enables modularity on top of it. Theres an old joke, emacs is a nice OS, only lacking a decent text editor. Or are you referring to the actual code itself?

I think he's just saying that the Unix philosophy of hundreds of different programs that communicate with pipes lost out, for him, to everything in one address space communicating with data structures, which is what Emacs is. Emacs was derided for being the anti-Unix. It's a text editor... but it has a shell, and a calendar, and reads email? CRAZY. WRONG. But in reality, the Unix way is showing its age and Emacs was…

Well... Unix bring the idea of being a "base platform" for third party software using simple IPC as a way to integrate any different kind of software. This work well in many case, but can't really scale so I consider UNIX model as a good model for "embedded devices" nothing more. Today's unix, only with X prove that unix model does not exists anymore.

Emacs bring the idea that there is no real distinction between application, OS, data whatever, we need a completely integrated computing environment that act "uno animo" easy bent and build for anyone by anyone. This works really well, but in academia, so in a super-slowly evolving environment because the level of complexity needed to realize such idea in practice is so high that's demand decades only to create a desktop... That's why Emacs while keep evolving and even after decades it's still on the scene, it shine or better as someone say it outshine other software like the sun outshine night stars, but it suffer it's own architecture being nearly unable to really radically evolve...

I hope for a distant future with a GuixSD OS, perhaps based on Plan9 (more interest IMO than Hurd), that boot directly into Emacs instead of a shell and anything is done with Guile Scheme so I can really see and use a LispMachine in the present (future) but it's a dream I do not really think it can ever arrive...

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