Live data from Hacker News

The future of Kubernetes is virtual machines

tech.paulcz.net

41–50 of 128 posts

Re: The future of Kubernetes is virtual machines

#41
post #33

As someone who has been a sysadmin and system programmer for 25 years and a crusty rat bastard for almost that long, I have to wonder how long it is going to be until someone realizes that a piece of hardware doing a task is more efficient than 27 layers of virtual machines and a long pair of tongs.

Or maybe raw performance isn’t always the most important attribute of a system?

Re: The future of Kubernetes is virtual machines

#42
post #33

As someone who has been a sysadmin and system programmer for 25 years and a crusty rat bastard for almost that long, I have to wonder how long it is going to be until someone realizes that a piece of hardware doing a task is more efficient than 27 layers of virtual machines and a long pair of tongs.

I agree with you, being in the same position. I wonder if the DevOps trend started because of the constant friction between devs and ops. While devs main concern and job is to deliver new features, ops main concern and job is to keep things stable. These different goals caused ops to be seen as an obstacle to dev job. Being the devs close to the business was easy to predict that we would be taken out or at least required to change. I think, we (ops) are mainly the one to blame for the current situation and now we can only adapt or die.

Re: The future of Kubernetes is virtual machines

#43

This is, like all good HN articles, technically correct and practically incorrect. It is correct that containers leak, and people know this. Multi-cluster strategies are real, and they shouldn't be. It should be OK to have one big cluster[1]. Until Kubernetes fixes this, there will be some friction to adopt it, based on real use cases like untrusted code and noisy neighbors. It is incorrect because users (e.g. non-in…

> It should be OK to have one big cluster Assuming you're deploying your Kube cluster in the cloud, the costs of having multiple clusters is really reduced. You don't have to allocate physical machines or worry about utilisation as much - you just pick a node size and autoscale. What that enables is thinking about other concerns when deciding how many clusters and where they are is right for your team. There are oper…

Config blast radius, hardware sizing, networking partitions, disaster recovery, dev/prod separation -- lots of good reasons to have multiple clusters!

As a gut check, most of these reasons apply to AWS AZs as well. If your Kubernetes strategy calls for more than one per region per AWS account, it means that you, organizationally, don't trust containers as much as you trust VMs on AWS. And right now, you're probably right to do so.

Re: The future of Kubernetes is virtual machines

#44
post #36
post #33

As someone who has been a sysadmin and system programmer for 25 years and a crusty rat bastard for almost that long, I have to wonder how long it is going to be until someone realizes that a piece of hardware doing a task is more efficient than 27 layers of virtual machines and a long pair of tongs.

amen. At first i figured containers were a good way to run code with difficult dependencies and weird operating environments, but that still doesnt make sense. - systemd and uwsgi for example play well when run as a single user per wsgi application under a single nginx/lb. - php-fpm already handles a ton of overhead from php apps. - ansible deployments called from gitlab-ci can roll out apps just as well as deploying…

I helped build an e-commerce marketplace, which is essentially a shopping cart system that was used by third parties. We had no idea how to predict traffic loads because we had no idea when one of our customers would run a successful campaign. Autoscaling on google appengine was a lifesaver for us. Our very small dev team focused on building features because we had zero devops and we didn't have to carry a pager.

Re: The future of Kubernetes is virtual machines

#45
post #33

As someone who has been a sysadmin and system programmer for 25 years and a crusty rat bastard for almost that long, I have to wonder how long it is going to be until someone realizes that a piece of hardware doing a task is more efficient than 27 layers of virtual machines and a long pair of tongs.

Or maybe raw performance isn’t always the most important attribute of a system?

Not directly, but cost usually it is. Being able to serve the same number of customers with less computational power means reducing your cost.

Re: The future of Kubernetes is virtual machines

#47
post #33

As someone who has been a sysadmin and system programmer for 25 years and a crusty rat bastard for almost that long, I have to wonder how long it is going to be until someone realizes that a piece of hardware doing a task is more efficient than 27 layers of virtual machines and a long pair of tongs.

Never.

Re: The future of Kubernetes is virtual machines

#48

While the use of namespaces seemed a bit discounted in the article, I think part of the problem is that it's an underutilized and poorly conveyed feature, but maybe that's just me? I'd like to see a better out-of-the-box vanilla K8S user management interface in the dashboard. Maybe the default UX on cluster creation is a user/service account that isn't cluster admin that is limited to 1 or more namespaces. There shou…

My org is using namespaces for tenant isolation. Works quite well.

Re: The future of Kubernetes is virtual machines

#49
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's still containers. The security profiles of containers and VMs, including kernel-based VMs, are different. VMs still have a significant edge, because the attack surface is smaller and doesn't have many competing missions.

The attack surface of a container can be massively reduced with seccomp profiles -- there was a paper a few years ago which found that the effective attack surface of a hypervisor was about the same as the attack surface of a locked-down seccomp profile of a container (and LXC/Docker/etc already have a default whitelist profile which has in practice mitigated something like 90% of kernel 0days). And let's not forget…

The economics agree, Zerodium pays as much for VM escape as for LPE. It does seem to be a bit of a low price though, $50,000.

Re: The future of Kubernetes is virtual machines

#50
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to use a distro. There are well tested puppet modules, which you could make into your own "distro", as well as openstack-ansible and kolla, and openstack-helm which uses helm to deploy openstack. There is also StarlingX. There is no kubeadm like system however, though I'm not sure how many people will really use kubeadm in prod. Is it complex? Yes. Is it more complex than k8s? Probably. However, are th…

True. My only experience is with VMware OpenStack, and my quick googling didn't turn up much info. I think Kubernetes will fall to the same fate as OpenStack is sliding into. Growing complexity with promises of the world. Time will tell. You seem to know more than I do, so I got to ask. Why does openstack-helm exist? Why would anyone want to deploy OpenStack on top of kubernetes? Is it so you can have the OpenStack A…

One of the issues with Openstack is managing the services required to run it. I imagine that helm could be used to make it easier to run these services in kubernetes.
Post reply on HN