Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko • Hacker News Board

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#221

Post by ethbro » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 7:24 PM UTC

kolikotime wrote: post #166

ethbro wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And we definitely felt sorry for Ivory Coast when French special forces busted into their presidential palace to resolve a domestic electoral dispute. You're referring to French forces arresting Laurent Gbagbo when he refused to cede power after losing the 2010 election? Allowing his winning opponent to assume the presidency? Extraditing Gbagbo to stand trial at ICC in The Hague? Where there's a chance he might be…

Some will say that it was a good intervention, in my opinion it is the continued and sustained pattern of French intervention that has resulted in the continued fragile nature of these states. And oh please we all know it wasn't really about "democratization", it was about removing an opponent of French geopolitical aims. Ivory Coast background - France enables a local despot, known as Felix Boigny, who does enable l…

Nobody's arguing colonial history doesn't have a huge number of mistakes.

But now, at this moment, policy going forward -- if not supporting democracy, democratically elected leaders, and the regular, peaceful transition of power, then what?

It's easy to cast stones, but useless without a better, prescriptive alternative.

Non-intervention on the world's part is why Gaddafi (42 years), Biya (43), Obiang (39), dos Santos (38), Mugabe (37), Museveni (33), etc. have been able (and are still able, in many cases) to rule their countries for decades.

Or, as Obama put it in his interview with Seinfeld in response to a question about how many world leaders are crazy, "A pretty sizable percentage [...] Part of what happens is, these guys, I think the longer they stay in office, the more likely that is to happen."

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#222

Post by baby » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 7:39 PM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #193

reaperducer wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make America realize that helping other countries will benefit the world including the US in the long run. America does realize this. It's why USAID, VOA, and other agencies spend billions of dollars each year for the last 60+ years building water systems, and swerage treatment plants, distributing medicine, teaching people better agriculture methods, stocking hospitals, supplying HIV/AIDS drugs to 80 million+ people…

> Much of this money is spent in the very nations, especially in the Middle East, that have significant populations that chant "Death to America" every time a television camera is around, then when the news crews go away, return to eating food supplied by the U.S. government. Are you meaning to imply that donating food should buy the U.S. some kind of credit allowance to conduct drone strikes that kill mainly civilia…

I think both your comments are legit. The US, like many countries, is very paradoxal in its decisions. I hope that one day such negative acts will be negligible compared to the positive ones.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#223

Post by kolikotime » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #221

kolikotime wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some will say that it was a good intervention, in my opinion it is the continued and sustained pattern of French intervention that has resulted in the continued fragile nature of these states. And oh please we all know it wasn't really about "democratization", it was about removing an opponent of French geopolitical aims. Ivory Coast background - France enables a local despot, known as Felix Boigny, who does enable l…

Nobody's arguing colonial history doesn't have a huge number of mistakes. But now, at this moment, policy going forward -- if not supporting democracy, democratically elected leaders, and the regular, peaceful transition of power, then what? It's easy to cast stones, but useless without a better, prescriptive alternative. Non-intervention on the world's part is why Gaddafi (42 years), Biya (43), Obiang (39), dos Sant…

I would love a wonderful world in which France generally supported democratic leaders and encouraged democratization. Such a world would likely prove the death knell of Francafrique. But it is a complete falsehood that France has that vision, it still supports scores of tyrants in the region, and has looked past the way quite a number of times in the last three years alone.

You seem to think this is still “colonial history”. It is very much still modern history.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#224

Post by seibelj » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 9:02 PM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #220

simplecomplex wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what's the left's proposed solution? More forgiving terms or no money at all available?

Since 'the left' isn't a monolithic entity, it's hard to describe a singular solution that we all agree on, or even name everything off the top of my head, but in my view, a good start would be to stop overthrowing people that do not open markets sufficiently to our interests, try to limit trade in USD/EUR etc. or otherwise do not align with 'our' interests. More favorable terms would also certainly help, so would ac…

> Stop being arrogant and thinking that we "know better" than the people who actually live in the area.

I believe this is the problem - the locals that have ran their country into the ground have proven that they do not how to manage their own country. This is why the market, which expects to be paid back, will no longer fund their mismanagement.

You have an extremely warped view of foreign countries that are forced to take loans from the IMF - these countries have economies that are collapsing.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#225

Post by kolikotime » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 9:32 PM UTC

forapurpose wrote: post #217

The amount of propaganda is damaging my experience here. Not unlike Facebook and other platforms, HN seems to resist discussing how its platform is being abused and how it damages user experience; users are forbidden from discussing it publicly (in fact, I hope this comment is on the ok side of the guidelines, as I'm not accusing anyone in particular). I'm confident that HN works on the issue, so perhaps my difficult…

This seems as if its pointed at me. I will say that I find it sad that modern discourse has reached such a sad state that we suspect everyone who has a nonconformist opinion of being a bot/robot/astroturfer.

All I will say is that I am no lover of China. Chinese civilization, like Western civilization has exhibited anti-black tendencies and attitudes. The Chinese are great lovers of African markets, but not African people.

I do encourage you though to try to understand the African perspective on this issue, as well as other related issues that you may not generally understand before you try to characterize it as propaganda. Modern Africa is in a state of flux and deeply in need of infrastructure. There are many who say there are heavy costs to Chinese built infrastructure in Africa, Those same analysts will not reflect on the severe costs currently to Africa of its lack of infrastructures. The absence of intra-regional rail, highways, of connected electricity grids, of pipes and pipelines. If the West is truly concerned about African welfare, they can always step to the fore with their own expansive infrastructure agenda, but they largely won't, and we all know the reason why.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#226

Post by kolikotime » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 9:41 PM UTC

forapurpose wrote: post #212

kolikotime wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The World Bank had free reign largely in Africa from the 1960s until the early 2000s. They and the IMF had an untrammeled monopoly for the most part, which was further supercharged by the 1980s Washington consensus. In that time period African states on the whole became poorer and state infrastructure crumbled. Now its not entirely on the World Bank/IMF of course, as in many countries there was misgovernance, but we…

Can you back up this claim? My understanding is that, speaking very generally about a large continent, most African countries did not implement the economic fundamentals preached by the World Bank and IMF, but failed to due to corruption and institutional problems, including a lack of the rule of law. What African country adopted the rule of law, open markets, stable monetary policies, a significant reduction in corr…

It is to my understanding that China was a relative latecomer to the World Bank and has never been a particularly heavy lender from the bank or the IMF, not to the extent that African states were subjected to. And furthermore while China did follow certain strains of the orthodoxy, it retained heavy state control and influence over many sectors and industries, something very few African states were able to retain following the Washington Consensus.

African states on the other hand, about 40 states in the 1980s underwent what we would call Structural Adjustment programs. State owned enterprises were sold, huge slashing cuts were made to education and healthcare(This in part decimated Nigeria's regional class university system), and various legal reforms for the benefit of Western investors. The results of those experiments were generally failed and led to a disastrous late 1980s and 1990s on the continent.

In terms of a country that implemented many of those reforms and failed to get that far. I would say both Ghana and Tanzania are pertinent examples. Ghana has implemented about three to four rounds of IMF engagement since the 1980s and is hailed regionally for its rule of law and stable political and investment climate, it still only has a GDP per capita of $1,641. Then you have Tanzania which since the 1980s has largely abandoned state socialism and embraced a mixed market economy, its GDP per capita? a whopping $936.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#227

Post by marnett » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 9:57 PM UTC

afpx wrote: post #96

kolikotime wrote: post #63

West African American here (Ghanaian - American). This article actually isn't true, while the Kenyan Chinese pact that led to the construction of the Nairobi - Mombasa Port does have clauses related to penalties around lack of payment, there has been no actual announcement or any signs of China declaring possession of the Mombasa Port. In fact, the big issue in Mombasa right now is actually revolving around a Kenyan…

Having worked with the World Bank in the past, I think that’s a very uninformed and biased view. They have been very effective in reducing poverty and improving infrastructure in Africa. I recommend that you read facts about what they do before reading random opinions online (from brand new accounts, especially). Also, I know dang warns us about pointing out potential propaganda, but this seems like this post is a go…

Please discuss which points are biased and how so. Dismissing a long form, fact-specific write up on some of the positive impacts of Chinese investments in Africa as propaganda and adding nothing to the conversation seems to me as lazy-mans propaganda.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#228

Post by AsyncAwait » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 10:30 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #224

AsyncAwait wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since 'the left' isn't a monolithic entity, it's hard to describe a singular solution that we all agree on, or even name everything off the top of my head, but in my view, a good start would be to stop overthrowing people that do not open markets sufficiently to our interests, try to limit trade in USD/EUR etc. or otherwise do not align with 'our' interests. More favorable terms would also certainly help, so would ac…

> Stop being arrogant and thinking that we "know better" than the people who actually live in the area. I believe this is the problem - the locals that have ran their country into the ground have proven that they do not how to manage their own country. This is why the market, which expects to be paid back, will no longer fund their mismanagement. You have an extremely warped view of foreign countries that are forced…

> the locals that have ran their country into the ground have proven that they do not how to manage their own country

The locals did not yet have much of a chance to actually run their own country, without facing coups, sanctions etc. from former colonial masters the moment they actually try to act sovereign. Having some dictator approved by France/U.S. running things is not my definition of locals running things.

> You have an extremely warped view of foreign countries

Take this advice yourself. The U.S. supports 75% of the world's dictatorships. If you believe that being exploited for centuries and then being forced down various neoliberal/'free market' policies down their throats by their former colonial masters after supposedly gaining independence, while the west props up some absolutely corrupt fu*k just so they can continue exploiting, then sending clothes in to feel better, without actually developing the local economy, if you think these things are not going on you're seriously delusional.

Read up on the history of Haiti. Then come back and we may have a real discussion.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#229

Post by SuperNinKenDo » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 10:39 PM UTC

paraditedc wrote: post #83

SuperNinKenDo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because it's very clear that China's intent with such loans is to create a casus belli for such seizures or create complete economic reliance. Nobody is going to sympathise with a predatory loanshark when they don't get paid and use it as an excuse to grab what they really wanted all along.

> It's because it's very clear that China's intent with such loans is to create a casus belli for such seizures or create complete economic reliance. Do you have actual evidence that this was the intention?

Let me know what evidence a 50 center would accept. Everyone else is convinced, so it's only you I would be working to sway.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#230

Post by forapurpose » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 11:10 PM UTC

marcosdumay wrote: post #219

forapurpose wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here in Brazil people are starting to open up for the Chinese loans. I read the opposite. What is that based on? EDIT: In response to the reply below, a search shows plenty of research out there on this topic. (Sorry, I don't have time to read it myself right now.)

It's based on talking to people and watching them change their opinion though time. It may be completely off due to sampling bias, but I don't think there is any source out there with better confidence, as I have never seen anybody doing a serious poll of the subject. EDIT: Well, in reply to your edit, how did you search for that research? All I can see is trash news about some huge investment coming from China to Br…

I did this search at Startpage.com:

  brazil attitudes toward china poll