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Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

nytimes.com

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Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#191

Post by cc81 »

zamalek wrote: post #120
orthecreedence wrote: post #33

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them. Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. If people don't like what you have to say, or how you are saying it, they are free to walk away. If you don't like what someone is doing in your place of business, you can also throw…

I don't think anyone is saying that there should be a law that forces Patreon to allow everyone on their platform. More a lamenting that the consequences of large platforms acting like this might be bigger than people think.

Reminds me a little of the whole Parental Advisory thing with rock music or Spotify's decisions around violent artists. How outraged should we be that artists that say very questionable things are on Spotify and Youtube? Should songs about murder, rape or glorifying breaking the law be allowed on those platforms? Or where should the companies draw the line?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#192

Post by korethr »

darkpuma wrote: post #19
StavrosK wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did he say, exactly? This sounds like a possible use-mention distinction problem to me.

Good question. I've found a transcript published by patreon: https://patreonhq.com/hate-speech-on-patreon-a9026e52c2cf?gi... It's... pretty vitriolic. I'm not totally comfortable with even quoting the redacted version, but here goes nothing: > “I just can’t be bothered with people who chose to treat me like this. It’s really annoying. Like, I — . You’re acting like a bunch of n_____s, just so you know. You act like w…

I can't deny, that's uncomfortable to read.

Stepping back from my discomfort, and trying to understand the context in which that statement was made, the impression I get is that he's using white-supremacist stereotypes of white_people==good and black_people==bad against white supremacists. If a white supremacist holds a worldview that white people are polite and civil, and black people are the opposite, then it seems to me there is no more just and cutting insult to a white supremacist than to point out to said white supremacist that he is acting not like the paragon of white virtue he imagines himself to be, but like the black stereotypes he denigrates. The video clip linked downthread seems to support this.

IMO, this falls into the same bucket as feminists using the misogynist language of male chauvinists against them, or pointing out to a homophobe he's acting like his negative stereotype of LGBTQ people. That is, more generally, pointing out to a bigot his hypocrisy.

But if use of slurs generally associated with negative stereotypes is verboten, period, regardless of context, that worries me. There is no better way to take down bigots than to call to light the inconsistency of their ideas and hypocrisy of their behavior. And if someone who'd call out bigots can't do that safely, you've taken away a powerful tool for fighting bigotry. Worse, if you do it inconsistently, you've just handed bigots a powerful rhetorical weapon, for now they can point out your own hypocrisy to cut down your anti-bigotry position.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#193

Post by ubernostrum »

brandonmenc wrote: post #165
ubernostrum wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> turnabout is a nice source of schadenfreude The problem with the, "ha! now you're getting yours!" attitude is that the situation will inevitably flip, and "your" side will be on the receiving end. Again. Rinse, repeat. Meanwhile, the power of the tools keeps growing until one day, it will be absolute. Whoever is on the wrong side of the ideological coin flipping when that happens will be in big trouble.

It could just as easily be argued that, instead of "flipping", or swinging back and forth like a pendulum, the consistent trend of the past 400 years or so is toward increased tolerance of everything except intolerance.

There are people trying to reverse that trend, of course, but the volume at which they're currently screaming that they've been silenced is, I think, a pretty good indicator of the trouble they're having trying to pull it off.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#194

Post by joshuamorton »

wildmusings wrote: post #173
zamalek wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them. Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. If people don't like what you have to say, or how you are saying it, they are free to walk away. If you don't like what someone is doing in your place of business, you can also throw…

The problem comes when network effects, entry barriers, and oligopolies make private exclusion take the character of a ban from the public square. Starting a rival credit card company, payment processor, and social network is not a viable option for people looking to participate in public discourse. Plenty of times throughout history, oligopolists and monopolists have been forced to follow common-carriage rules, whet…

But now you're changing the argument: that not only must you have free speech, but that others must assist you in getting compensated for your speech and to help you potentially subsist off of it.

That's never been part of any conversation about free speech. (Even the broader non 1st amendment version). And it doesn't make sense. You can always take cash or check. The post office doesn't discriminate.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#195

Post by microcolonel »

danso wrote: post #168
EpicEng wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see him throwing the slurs people in his stream are using back at them. >Exactly how you describe black people acting is the impression I get dealing with the Alt Right. I’m really, I’m just not in the mood to deal with this kind of disrespect.” He's saying that these people are acting in exactly the manner they are accusing others of acting, and he's using their slurs to make the comparison.

Yeah no. > Maybe you’re just acting like a n____r, mate? Have you considered that? Do you think white people act like this? White people are meant to be polite and respectful to one another, and you guys can’t even act like white people, it’s really amazing to me.

He's speaking from their perspective, clearly.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#196

Post by bilbo0s »

magduf wrote: post #175
bilbo0s wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really worrying. Just different individuals and organizations taking different positions on different subjects. Most importantly, all of it happening on private property. I have an unpopular opinion. I believe people should be able to fly nazi and confederate flags on their private property. (Even if their private property overlooks yours.) I believe football players should be able to kneel during the national an…

>I have an unpopular opinion. I believe people should be able to fly nazi and confederate flags on their private property. (Even if their private property overlooks yours.) I believe football players should be able to kneel during the national anthem. No, you have two totally different opinions here. Football players are not private individuals on their own private land. They're basically employees of a sort, so they…

But most football players are obviously not working for such an organization. And they are taking these actions on private property.

Now, if a guy or gal is invited to perform on a military base during a national holiday commemoration, then sure, they should be compelled not to kneel. But if we're talking about things happening on private property as a part of a private gathering, those people can do whatever they please.

If the owners have the guts, let them all fire the football players. That's their right. Either way, the only input we should have on the matter is to watch the football game, or to walk away and not watch it.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#197

Post by infoworm »

>That stopped this month. On Dec. 6, Patreon kicked the anti-feminist polemic Carl Benjamin, who works under the name Sargon of Akkad, off its site for using racist language on YouTube.

The article says they barred an account for racist speech, but the article doesn't share the offending quote and without the accompanying context?

Classic case of dishonest media framing.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#198

Post by DonHopkins »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #9
apk-d wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our descendants are going to be seriously confused by our practice of limiting or taking away people's ability to earn money because they publicly used a wrong word. Or so I hope, at least.

> taking away people's ability to earn money On a single platform. Nobody's preventing Mr. Benjamin from making money; they're just not allowing him to use one specific platform. He's welcome to sign up for Hatreon, or to use a payment processor directly.

How does Hatreon compare with Go-Fundie-Me?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#199

Post by paulcole »

brandonmenc wrote: post #165
ubernostrum wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> turnabout is a nice source of schadenfreude The problem with the, "ha! now you're getting yours!" attitude is that the situation will inevitably flip, and "your" side will be on the receiving end. Again. Rinse, repeat. Meanwhile, the power of the tools keeps growing until one day, it will be absolute. Whoever is on the wrong side of the ideological coin flipping when that happens will be in big trouble.

>The problem with the, "ha! now you're getting yours!" attitude is that the situation will inevitably flip, and "your" side will be on the receiving end. Again. Rinse, repeat.

Yep. Believe it or not, it’s possible for what’s seen as right today to be considered wrong tomorrow and this can be a sign of progress in society.

See slavery, bloodletting, alchemy. Although with Bitcoin’s popularity, it seems as though alchemy is back in again.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#200

Post by nharada »

augustl wrote: post #124
nkurz wrote: post #69

The article avoids the specifics of what Benjamin said, which makes it hard to judge whether Patreon is acting reasonably. The interview in question is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ87Wf-0rZg . Here are some excerpts from the automatically generated transcript (click the 3 dots, then "Open transcript"): I just can't be bothered to deal with people who treat me like this it's really annoying like I you are a…

According to Carl Benjamin himself, the comments were meant ironically. He was reacting to a chat stream, which is missing context in that video, and the chat used slurs like this. So Benjamin used the slurs back at them. Having said that, we have to assume Benjamin’s inner thoughts to know what he really meant, so I’m not arguing we should disregard it completely because of his alledged good intentions.

I don't think you should get to walk back your shitty comments by claiming you were just joking the whole time. Based on this guy's past behavior, I don't think anyone is giving him the benefit of the doubt here either.
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