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Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

nation.co.ke

171–180 of 266 posts

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#171
post #108

West African American here (Ghanaian - American). This article actually isn't true, while the Kenyan Chinese pact that led to the construction of the Nairobi - Mombasa Port does have clauses related to penalties around lack of payment, there has been no actual announcement or any signs of China declaring possession of the Mombasa Port. In fact, the big issue in Mombasa right now is actually revolving around a Kenyan…

I am an African and I live in West Africa. I think China is doing great job for the continent and it is helping Africa upgrade her infrastructure. But we Africans should know that sustainable development and transfer of technology cannot come if we fail to build our own indigenous peoples and companies. Nobody is father Christmas, everybody is there to maximize his gains. So , we Africans should wake up and take our…

> If we use only Chinese oriented inputs what benefit is their for the local communities and businesses?

When you buy a road, you get to transport things; when you buy a port, you get to do long distance trade. That happens even when no local job is created.

The benefit is there as long as the loans are for fairly priced infrastructure with real value. People (across the world) suspect this kind of loan because it is too often used for financing way too expensive infrastructure with no real value. The local population of a country has the challenge of allowing their politicians to do the first without allowing them to do the second, so if you trust your people and institutions to achieve that, there's absolutely no problem with the loans.

Here in Brazil people are starting to open up for the Chinese loans. It is happening at the same time as people are trusting a bit more the government to not be corrupt, but I don't think there is any causal relation.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#172

West African American here (Ghanaian - American). This article actually isn't true, while the Kenyan Chinese pact that led to the construction of the Nairobi - Mombasa Port does have clauses related to penalties around lack of payment, there has been no actual announcement or any signs of China declaring possession of the Mombasa Port. In fact, the big issue in Mombasa right now is actually revolving around a Kenyan…

Are you seriously claiming that the French (and/or EU) somehow orchestrated the Libyan civil war? Offtopic: You joined yesterday and have gained 160+ points already with only 7 comments. That is very impressive!

As someone who doesn't consider themself to be a bot - if that is your inference - I upvoted because i found the post particularly well-written and informative from someone 'on the ground' so to speak.

- ed

(also somewhat contrary to my preferred Euro-friendly narrative)

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just feels like whataboutism, no one denies that the European imperialism was bad.

It is definitely not whataboutism. Here's a definition for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism I'm not creating a false moral equivalence between European Imperialism and China, I'm refuting it.

> Before we throw about the term "Imperialism", let's remember what kinds of things the European powers did

You imply a relationship between the two throughout the rest of your comment, starting from the first sentence. Just because you make the refutation in the last sentence does not suddenly wave away the whataboutism you employ through the rest of your comment; directly comparing the two.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If my IP can be protected, then yes it is probably infinite times better for it to be a Freedom Trade Port than the Port of The Dictator's Party

Because IP is so much more valuable than lives the Chinese helped save while the west offered nothing (except for even way worse deals through the IMF and WB).

> Because IP is so much more valuable than lives

The average Western human life is $5-20 million. IP can be easily worth more than that.

Lives are probably worth less to the Chinese government, though.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#176
How does this happen, a website, literally created on 5 months ago, probably just for this article, hits the HN front page. If you google africastand it asks "do you mean africasand". OP how did you come across this article?

Edit: my bad made a typo. Ignore the google part. But the post still stands.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#177
To take over Mombasa port is the equivalent of a strategic takeout/takeover of a number of East African countries. Mombasa port and its adjoining highway connects Uganda, South Sudan, Rwanda, and Burundi. 100% of East Africa's export cash crop produce (Coffee, Tea) flows through the port which translates to significant revenues and GDP. I really hope that African para-state agencies (African Dev Bank) steps in and provides monetary assistance to Kenya.

Times like this make me wish that the EA community takes off and together these tiny countries are able to better band together and pony up.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#178

As with any sales there could be that factor of China trying to sell more of their product/services(just like US does to sell weapons in various nations) but I find it strange that people are trying to politicize it being debt trap and trying to garner sympathy towards the defaulter than towards the victim who didn't get paid.

>>but I find it strange that people are trying to politicize it being debt trap and trying to garner sympathy towards the defaulter than towards the victim who didn't get paid.

I find it strange that new accounts are defending China using academic language that is not commonly used in HN discussions.

Debt trap explains the victim and defaulter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt-trap_diplomacy

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#179
post #167
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have been very effective in reducing poverty and improving infrastructure in Africa. I'm sure Joe Stiglitz, a Nobel prize winner in Economics, would disagree. In fact, he clearly articulated why in his book: Globalization and Its Discontents . "[It] is a book published in 2002 by the 2001 Nobel laureate Joseph E. Stiglitz. The book draws on Stiglitz's personal experience as chairman of the Council of Economic…

That’s called the Appeal to Authority Fallacy. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

And your argument is just an anecdote. Now who would we trust more, a random stranger on the internet or a Nobel laureate?

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is definitely not whataboutism. Here's a definition for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism I'm not creating a false moral equivalence between European Imperialism and China, I'm refuting it.

> Before we throw about the term "Imperialism", let's remember what kinds of things the European powers did You imply a relationship between the two throughout the rest of your comment, starting from the first sentence. Just because you make the refutation in the last sentence does not suddenly wave away the whataboutism you employ through the rest of your comment; directly comparing the two.

Whataboutism is basically this:

A: X is bad, B does that. B is bad.

B: Y is bad too, and A does that. You're just as bad as me.

What I said was:

Imperialism is A, B, C, D.

China doesn't do any of those, so let's not call them imperialist.

Now you can argue about what imperialism is, but you can't argue that I'm making a different kind of argument to whataboutism.

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