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Rome in Ruins

nytimes.com

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Re: Rome in Ruins

#41

Post by aristophenes »

lordnacho wrote: post #36

I've driven into Italy from Switzerland on a few occasions. It's like one of those MMOs where you know you're in a new zone immediately. Even though you're driving you can tell exactly where the border is, not just where the official building for the import/export inspectors are, but the exact place where the Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins. Switzerland: Asphalt is perfect. No potholes, it might be a Formul…

They probably do hire people to clean things up. Those people probably just don’t actually clean.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#42

Post by Farradfahren »

dwd wrote: post #13
briga wrote: post #2

It's not just Rome, I saw this in other Italian cities as well. The tourist areas are well-manicured, naturally, but the outskirts of many Italian cities are crumbling. Infrastructure is generally outdated and poorly designed, if not actively falling apart. The Italy of postcards and travel videos is a far cry from the Italy most Italians live in.

Visiting Venice many years ago, I found myself watching the ground rather than viewing the architecture due to the amount of dog shit on the streets. Obviously picking up after your dog is not in any way.

Pitch,Yaw and Roll: What if there was a drone, to pack your dogshit, clean the location and vannish out of sight. Would you invest in that?

Re: Rome in Ruins

#43

Post by jpatokal »

lordnacho wrote: post #36

I've driven into Italy from Switzerland on a few occasions. It's like one of those MMOs where you know you're in a new zone immediately. Even though you're driving you can tell exactly where the border is, not just where the official building for the import/export inspectors are, but the exact place where the Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins. Switzerland: Asphalt is perfect. No potholes, it might be a Formul…

And northern Italy is the "good bit": by and large, the further down south into the mezzogiorno you go, the worse it gets.

I was once in Palermo, the largest city in Sicily, which has buildings that were bombed in WW2 and have not been repaired. An American couple wandered past, looking for the famed Piazza Pretoria: they were actually on it, they just didn't realize the moldy pool with a boot floating in it was the (broken) fountain landmark they were looking for.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#44

Post by agumonkey »

fiblye wrote: post #37
lordnacho wrote: post #36

I've driven into Italy from Switzerland on a few occasions. It's like one of those MMOs where you know you're in a new zone immediately. Even though you're driving you can tell exactly where the border is, not just where the official building for the import/export inspectors are, but the exact place where the Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins. Switzerland: Asphalt is perfect. No potholes, it might be a Formul…

I've heard a lot from other Americans about thinking France was a dump when they visited, and I really thought they were exaggerating. When I visited, I was actually pretty surprised to find it just how they described it. I wasn't sure if it was just that it was different, but I guess it's nice knowing at least some Europeans seem to agree. What really shocked me was how often I've heard terrible things about China f…

France a dump ? holy cow, I need to visit the places you went. And I don't even live in a posh part .. yet the word dump would never occur to me.

As you said it yourself, there are shitty spots in every country, but so far I'd say France is well rounded.

It's true we're (I) biased toward China, probably because of the regular toxic smog news.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#45

Post by agumonkey »

lordnacho wrote: post #36

I've driven into Italy from Switzerland on a few occasions. It's like one of those MMOs where you know you're in a new zone immediately. Even though you're driving you can tell exactly where the border is, not just where the official building for the import/export inspectors are, but the exact place where the Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins. Switzerland: Asphalt is perfect. No potholes, it might be a Formul…

I went in Italy only once, but I find it's pretty similar to tropical islands in spirit. Cramped mountain roads, care free lifestyle. I remember in the 90s they were still using old buses on super tiny high altitude roads, driver would barely look while driving. It's possible that for them, it just doesn't matter, and things are ok this way. For people used to lots of infrastructure it's a shocker, but sometimes (except for collapsing bridges) I do think it's not a bad way of life.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#46

Post by pfdzm »

fyfy18 wrote: post #5
briga wrote: post #2

It's not just Rome, I saw this in other Italian cities as well. The tourist areas are well-manicured, naturally, but the outskirts of many Italian cities are crumbling. Infrastructure is generally outdated and poorly designed, if not actively falling apart. The Italy of postcards and travel videos is a far cry from the Italy most Italians live in.

Spain is in the same situation, although maybe not so pronounced yet. It's a stark contrast to post-Soviet countries, which are relatively well maintained and seeing trash dumped is practically unheard of.

I’m from Madrid and, having recently been to Rome, would have to disagree.

While Spain is certainly not on Switzerland or Japan’s level of cleanliness, I think it is miles away from Italy. Just the taxi ride from Fiumicino to Rome made me feel like I was in Brazil again - crooked, dirty road signs, wild vegetation growing everywhere, fading markings/lines, and a general state of chaos on every road.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#47

Post by Shivetya »

lordnacho wrote: post #36

I've driven into Italy from Switzerland on a few occasions. It's like one of those MMOs where you know you're in a new zone immediately. Even though you're driving you can tell exactly where the border is, not just where the official building for the import/export inspectors are, but the exact place where the Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins. Switzerland: Asphalt is perfect. No potholes, it might be a Formul…

the issue with hiring as you qualified it is that many would find it insulting to the work that needs to be done. the wage they would want would be completely out of proportion to the skill level required yet they would rather not work than suffer offense.

We have created in the Western world a sense of entitlement such that there are jobs only those who immigrate will take. Not because because the work is hard but because the perception that it is for "those people".

In the US the best description I can give is, we have moved away from JFK famous speech of "Ask not what your country can do for you" to the near opposite. When politicians hammer at the idea of unfairness and inequality instead of one of service and hard work it can defeat a society as surely as any conflict of arms. We have far too few inspiring leaders and instead stuck with those who divide in order to obtain the power and positions they want for themselves.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#48

Post by southerndrift »

jpatokal wrote: post #43
lordnacho wrote: post #36

I've driven into Italy from Switzerland on a few occasions. It's like one of those MMOs where you know you're in a new zone immediately. Even though you're driving you can tell exactly where the border is, not just where the official building for the import/export inspectors are, but the exact place where the Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins. Switzerland: Asphalt is perfect. No potholes, it might be a Formul…

And northern Italy is the "good bit": by and large, the further down south into the mezzogiorno you go, the worse it gets. I was once in Palermo, the largest city in Sicily, which has buildings that were bombed in WW2 and have not been repaired. An American couple wandered past, looking for the famed Piazza Pretoria: they were actually on it, they just didn't realize the moldy pool with a boot floating in it was the…

Some time ago, I came across the Wikipedia page of Naples [1]:

* >The University of Naples, the first university in Europe dedicated to training secular administrators,

* >Naples became part of the Kingdom of Italy in 1861 as part of the Italian unification, ending the era of Bourbon rule. The kingdom of the Two Sicilies had been wealthy, and as many as 443.2 million ducats were taken from the old kingdom's banks as a contribution to the new Italian treasury.

* >by 1884, Naples was still the largest city in Italy with 496,499 inhabitants, or roughly 64,000 per square kilometre (more than twice the population density of Paris)

It's funny that part of the north believes that they were better off without the south[2]. It would be funny if it were actually the other way round.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naples

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_Nord

Re: Rome in Ruins

#49

Post by eecc »

Process. There’s so much process and bureaucracy in Italy that you can’t singlehandedly do anything. You need politicians - or rather, well connected busybodies - to call in their clientele, a couple private phone calls and “trovare la Quadra” which is an euphemism for finding a solution that appeases all interests.

I don’t know, maybe it’s a reaction to authoritarian fascism, or just something intrinsic to us (read several accounts on how it was all just the same during Fascism) but it’s just too difficult to manover such a large ship with small engines and little fuel.

It’s not just Rome, it’s everything around her that makes it so.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#50

Post by eecc »

southerndrift wrote: post #48
jpatokal wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And northern Italy is the "good bit": by and large, the further down south into the mezzogiorno you go, the worse it gets. I was once in Palermo, the largest city in Sicily, which has buildings that were bombed in WW2 and have not been repaired. An American couple wandered past, looking for the famed Piazza Pretoria: they were actually on it, they just didn't realize the moldy pool with a boot floating in it was the…

Some time ago, I came across the Wikipedia page of Naples [1]: * >The University of Naples, the first university in Europe dedicated to training secular administrators, * >Naples became part of the Kingdom of Italy in 1861 as part of the Italian unification, ending the era of Bourbon rule. The kingdom of the Two Sicilies had been wealthy, and as many as 443.2 million ducats were taken from the old kingdom's banks as…

Several claim the “national unification” was more a colonial effort than anything else.

But, Mazzini and Garibaldi were also interested in ridding the south of their Baroni and Viceré, who thrived in the misery and plight of the masses that toiled to support their luxuries

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