China Cracks Down on Churches • Hacker News Board

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#121

Post by notasoul » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 5:46 PM UTC

somethingle234 wrote: post #23

I'm not supporting China here, but the ideology "accepting all faith" is strange and, maybe, dangerous. Bible contains some cruel stories. But Christianity has a leader, which is Pope, who has ties with modern world and updates/rejects the stories from Bible, so it works decently enough with modern world. Other religions don't have that kinds of checks and balances. some religions just interpret whatever ancient book…

please read the Bible before you make such foolish claims

>Christianity has a leader, which is Pope

Christianity has one leader, and savior (Jesus) who's birth the world is celebrating today. Everyone else is merely a messenger of Christ, although there is an increasing number of false messengers looking to profit off Christ[mas].

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#122

Post by kadendogthing » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 5:47 PM UTC

dvtrn wrote: post #112

kadendogthing wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you think people hold such opinions, not that they actually do. It's a really contrived point that comes up in these types of conversations. Feel free to link any kind of substantial material backing up the frequency of such opinions.

The lack of awareness on display right now is astounding and borderline offensive, people just don't hold the "opinion" that Christians are persecuted around the world, they are pointing to actual current events of Christian persecution. https://www.wsj.com/articles/egyptian-church-hit-by-bomb-bla... https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/29-coptic-christians-mu... https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/06/18/mosuls-christians…

You have significantly misunderstood the context of the conversation.

No one has said that Christians aren't persecuted around the world. No one has even implied this was the case. Because people don't hold such opinions.

He is implying that people hold these opinions. I am asking for some kind of substantial material validating the frequency of such opinions.

It helps to respond to the actual conversation instead of contrived strawmans. You are very much proving my point.

+1 For self-awareness, it would have saved you writing out that post.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#123

Post by clairity » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 5:47 PM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #92

tivert wrote: post #18

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government and Mr. Xi’s embrace of traditional Chinese culture and Confucian teachings that emphasize obedience and order. > But the government’s heavy-handed efforts to obliterate several high-profile churches have been met with resi…

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government This is the part that confuses me. I'm not sure what Christianity intrinsically promotes (ask 12 Christians and I suspect you'll receive 13 conflicting opinions). But practically speaking , governments and ruling classes ha…

while there is some interpretive leeway, malleability isn’t a feature of christianity, it’s the effect of coercive power attracted to the centralized conduit of control that religion provides.

if christians actually followed christ’s teachings, we’d see a lot more generosity and a lot less wealth disparity and homelessness.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#124

Post by Farradfahren » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 5:48 PM UTC

coliveira wrote: post #104

ghobs91 wrote: post #29

This is why it's frustrating when some make it seem that Christians are incapable of facing persecution, based entirely on their experiences in the US. The Christians in China are very brave for standing by their faith, and I wish them luck and peace.

Christians persecute Muslins. Muslins persecute Christians. Buddhists persecute Muslins. Christians persecute Jews. Muslins persecute Hinduism. It is not a Christian thing, it is a religion tradition all over the world to persecute other religions. Christians have done this for millennia and sometimes they are victims themselves. I think the solution is to stop with the craziness altogether.

Maybe in a perfect society, we could get all these religions to form a persecution ring, where every religious group can persecute on other and get persecuted by one another. A perfect stable balance of victimness and evilness.

Imagine what happens with blame and crazyness, like for example from the social justice cult, when you put them into such a accelerator.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#125

Post by bitcrusher » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 5:48 PM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #92

tivert wrote: post #18

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government and Mr. Xi’s embrace of traditional Chinese culture and Confucian teachings that emphasize obedience and order. > But the government’s heavy-handed efforts to obliterate several high-profile churches have been met with resi…

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government This is the part that confuses me. I'm not sure what Christianity intrinsically promotes (ask 12 Christians and I suspect you'll receive 13 conflicting opinions). But practically speaking , governments and ruling classes ha…

I think you’re making the mistake of equating Christianity and Catholicism. They have the same roots but all of the things you’re assigning to Christianity is really the machinations of ‘The Church’ weilding Christians beliefs as a cudgel for the aspirations of ruling bodies.

There is definitely a fine line between the two that is often blurred, but Christianity at its core is about people who are oppressed finding freedom in faith. It’s one of the reasons it is easy to ‘spread’; every culture on earth has oppressors and oppressed.

I think your other point is super interesting however, in that when the oppressed are ‘free’ and become the majority, Christianity doesn’t have much to offer and then becomes the weapon of the ruling class ( or majority ) keeping people ‘in line’.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#126

Post by spinach » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 5:48 PM UTC

40acres wrote: post #102

Does China have a state religion? Seems like the government clamps down on all of the major religions, is it a secular culture?

China is secular, for them it's about the 'power of the people' and community.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#127

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 5:48 PM UTC

cslarson wrote: post #116

jeswin wrote: post #89

I participate in Christian festivities and find them quite joyful. It's a wonderful time of the year for most of the world. However, whether countries should allow the propogation of religion and mythology is entirely up to them. Many countries have laws against various forms of deception - and religion straddles that line (of deception) so often. If action is being taken against the people who propagate "falsety" ra…

I am terrified of you and your monopoly on truth.

[deleted]

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#128

Post by tree_of_item » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 5:49 PM UTC

julienreszka wrote: post #65

That's how the one party rule will eventually end. Chinese trolls will probably downvote this comment into oblivion.

I don't consider myself a Chinese troll, but I'm going to downvote you for trying to guilt people out of downvoting you.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#129

Post by PavlovsCat » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 5:49 PM UTC

jeswin wrote: post #89

I participate in Christian festivities and find them quite joyful. It's a wonderful time of the year for most of the world. However, whether countries should allow the propogation of religion and mythology is entirely up to them. Many countries have laws against various forms of deception - and religion straddles that line (of deception) so often. If action is being taken against the people who propagate "falsety" ra…

> However, whether countries should allow the propogation of religion and mythology is entirely up to them.

Would you be okay with the country you're subject to the laws to "deciding" to put you and your family in prison for holding that opinion? Why is one thing "up to them", but this presumably not?

> If action is being taken against the people who propagate "falsety" rather than against the "mislead", the ethicality of such action is quite defensible.

Then show that is the case, and then defend it. Until then, why even mention the possibility? Isn't that kind of a rhetorical trick? Wouldn't you agree this straddles the line of deception, that is, that you're either "just" deceiving yourself with, or trying to deceive? Can you prove it wasn't your intent, but a honest mistake? If you err on the side of guilty, because "it might be defensible to persecute" is good enough for you, wouldn't it be fair to simply assume the worst of you?

That's not how I would treat people, but when someone makes an ethical argument, the first thing you always, always do is do a quick scan of applying it to them, when it's obvious that they can't be meaning what they're saying, to explain to them what they're saying.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#130

Post by coliveira » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 5:50 PM UTC

nyolfen wrote: post #27

dahidahi1 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if I get your drift, someday you'll support the "freedom of expression" of terrorists? The church is known to indulge in borderline terrorism, just fyi. This is at least in the case of India. We suffer it every single day.

what is "borderline terrorism"? the churches in the article were targeted for criticizing corrupt officials, in china

Every politician that we don't like is accused of corruption, in one way of another. I have seen this happening everywhere, and I see no reason to suppose that these denunciation of corruption is not politically motivated itself.