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China Cracks Down on Churches

nytimes.com

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Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#111

Post by somethingle234 »

somethingle234 wrote: post #98
krapp wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "accepting" a faith? Accepting its tenets as true, or accepting the presence of its adherents?

My use of English isn't very good, I apologize. Let me give a thought experiment. Let's say: one religion believes that the person who leaves that religion should be killed Should I be ok with the person with this religion? Should I do something about this? I want to say there are good practices and bad practices. But our ideology is to accept all of them. That's not good.

Just to clarify: by accepting it, I mean "not practicing it, but be okay with the fact that the person next to you is practicing it."

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#112

Post by dvtrn »

kadendogthing wrote: post #74
ghobs91 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that the "war on Christmas" stuff is nonsense, but you'd be surprised at how many people write off Christian persecution, based solely on the fact that some of the most powerful nations in the world are "Christian nations".

I think you think people hold such opinions, not that they actually do. It's a really contrived point that comes up in these types of conversations. Feel free to link any kind of substantial material backing up the frequency of such opinions.

The lack of awareness on display right now is astounding and borderline offensive, people just don't hold the "opinion" that Christians are persecuted around the world, they are pointing to actual current events of Christian persecution.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/egyptian-church-hit-by-bomb-bla...

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/29-coptic-christians-mu...

https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/06/18/mosuls-christians-say-g...

http://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/iraq/10032018

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#113

Post by coliveira »

gammateam wrote: post #62
maratd wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is horrendously inaccurate. Yes, if you're a part of a sect controlled by the Communist Party, you're ok. The idea that this is a viable alternative ... I'm beyond words. The fact that you cannot purchase books at the heart of those Abrahamic religions says enough. You cannot even practice in the safety of your own home.

> This is horrendously inaccurate. Yes, if you're a part of a sect controlled by the Communist Party, you're ok. The idea that this is a viable alternative ... I'm beyond words. I didn't say or suggest it was a viable alternative. I literally wrote it was unfavorable. With that in mind, what is inaccurate about what I wrote?

Cristians are always thinking about persecution, even when they are there persecuting literally everyone who disagrees with their beliefs. Just consider the evangelicals in the US for a good example of how "inclusive" they are.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#114

Post by partiallypro »

StevePerkins wrote: post #92
tivert wrote: post #18

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government and Mr. Xi’s embrace of traditional Chinese culture and Confucian teachings that emphasize obedience and order. > But the government’s heavy-handed efforts to obliterate several high-profile churches have been met with resi…

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government This is the part that confuses me. I'm not sure what Christianity intrinsically promotes (ask 12 Christians and I suspect you'll receive 13 conflicting opinions). But practically speaking , governments and ruling classes ha…

You have a grave misreading of the history of Christianity. It was used as a control device when it was centrally controlled and delivered (like all religions)...the invention of the printing press changed all of that with the Reformation. Once the knowledge was spread through the people and open to interpretations, the general direction of Christianity (despite all the faults of modern movements) has trended towards equality and freedom, which is much in line with the Gospels. Martin Luther and John Calvin had a profound impact, and once you saw those movements you began to see all the modern western values emerge, from economics to political freedom.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#115

Post by jeswin »

friedman23 wrote: post #95
jeswin wrote: post #89

I participate in Christian festivities and find them quite joyful. It's a wonderful time of the year for most of the world. However, whether countries should allow the propogation of religion and mythology is entirely up to them. Many countries have laws against various forms of deception - and religion straddles that line (of deception) so often. If action is being taken against the people who propagate "falsety" ra…

> However, whether countries should allow the propogation of religion and mythology is entirely up to them. This isn't a democratic country, so you should rephrase your statement justifying this as "whether an authoritarian cabal should allow the propagation of a religion and mythology is entirely up to them" A person's beliefs are up to them not their government.

> A person's beliefs are up to them not their government

Even democracies have rules against false advertising. We've chosen to give religion a free pass here, though the evidence to back any of its claims is quite flimsy.

This subject is somewhat tough to debate. I had a wonderful Christmas day, though I'm not a believer.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#116

Post by cslarson »

jeswin wrote: post #89

I participate in Christian festivities and find them quite joyful. It's a wonderful time of the year for most of the world. However, whether countries should allow the propogation of religion and mythology is entirely up to them. Many countries have laws against various forms of deception - and religion straddles that line (of deception) so often. If action is being taken against the people who propagate "falsety" ra…

I am terrified of you and your monopoly on truth.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#117

Post by [deleted] »

tivert wrote: post #18

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government and Mr. Xi’s embrace of traditional Chinese culture and Confucian teachings that emphasize obedience and order. > But the government’s heavy-handed efforts to obliterate several high-profile churches have been met with resi…

[deleted]

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#118

Post by martythemaniak »

StevePerkins wrote: post #92
tivert wrote: post #18

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government and Mr. Xi’s embrace of traditional Chinese culture and Confucian teachings that emphasize obedience and order. > But the government’s heavy-handed efforts to obliterate several high-profile churches have been met with resi…

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government This is the part that confuses me. I'm not sure what Christianity intrinsically promotes (ask 12 Christians and I suspect you'll receive 13 conflicting opinions). But practically speaking , governments and ruling classes ha…

You're correct that it is whatever people need it to be.

But it is also its own thing, not so much ideologically, but that it is a social grouping and and alternate hierarchy of power separate from the state. Every ruler from Constantine on has had trouble with the Church to some degree, as the Church has always laid claim to various social and political powers that rulers would have wanted for themselves.

In this sense, maybe the Chinese Communists are right to be worried, after all many of the functions churches perform in the west are the exclusive domain of the Chinese State. Coopting it would require them to become Christian themselves, which is what happened in the Roman Empire, but only after Christians had become entrenched in the upper levels of society.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#119

Post by onetimemanytime »

StevePerkins wrote: post #92
tivert wrote: post #18

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government and Mr. Xi’s embrace of traditional Chinese culture and Confucian teachings that emphasize obedience and order. > But the government’s heavy-handed efforts to obliterate several high-profile churches have been met with resi…

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government This is the part that confuses me. I'm not sure what Christianity intrinsically promotes (ask 12 Christians and I suspect you'll receive 13 conflicting opinions). But practically speaking , governments and ruling classes ha…

>>Christianity became one of the Top Two religions on earth, precisely because of how malleable it is

Christianity i one the top ten religions on earth--or the most popular, depending on how you look at it. :)

But you are right, its interpretation depends on the Pope. While they are Orthodox and Protestants (fragmented), the Vatican sucks the oxygen out of them when it comes to the media and reputation.

What China is doing is very logical: any religion is a threat to their ideology and if you're a leader in China you don't want that. Who needs the Bible when you have the Chinese version of the Manifesto? Or the Pope when you have Xi Jinping?

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#120

Post by coliveira »

dahidahi1 wrote: post #19
saagarjha wrote: post #5

Regardless of your faith (or lack thereof), I hope you agree that this is pretty horrible from a freedom of expression perspective :/

So if I get your drift, someday you'll support the "freedom of expression" of terrorists? The church is known to indulge in borderline terrorism, just fyi. This is at least in the case of India. We suffer it every single day.

The Christian church has traditionally supported all kinds of regime upheavals that support their theocratic views. Especially the ones backed by the US and allies. Then in the same breath they claim to be unjustly persecuted when they are not allowed to freely spouse these views in another country.
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