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"Please take this down and write your own book."

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Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#151
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please understand: when you do something wrong, when you "ignore" or "assume" away that you're doing something wrong, when you react belligerently to the person telling you to stop doing that wrong thing, your original intent just isn't that important .

I'm sorry man but the person initially belligerent was Zed with his remarks about class and his hostile approach. Martin, complied with that Zed asked, and tried to explain his reason, his intent, and why he thought it was ok. Zed again responded in an antagonizing way. If Zed had done the things the 'classy' way, he would have either sent a Cease and Desist notice or sent a POLITE message to the person he's addressi…

No. Full stop.

The person wrong was Edme. The person wronged was Shaw.

Absorb these facts.

The person who tried to tell the person he wronged that he hadn't actually done anything wrong was Edme. The person who twittered about the person he'd wronged being a douchebag was Edme. The person who continued and escalated the confrontation, instead of apologizing, taking his lumps, and STFUing, was Edme.

Absorb those facts.

This story does NOT start with Shaw's first message as some sort of aggression. It starts with Edme and it continues with Edme, no matter how you try to recast it.

Now, if Shaw's "tendencies" were leading him to try to ruin Edme's reputation, I think he could have accomplished that much easier by making a long blog post about how Edme is an asshole, instead of a blog post that tangentially mentioned that some unnamed people were trying to "port" his book, why that was a bad idea, and how to properly go about making a version of his book.

On the other hand, Edme tried to publicize the exchange. He posted it on HN to cold disinterest and a flag-killing. If anyone was trying to hurt anyone's else's reputation, I think it was Edme himself. That Edme's reputation will probably suffer more that Shaw's is just funny.

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#152
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not nice? He could have sent a settlement offer... pay me X dollars for damaging my reputation as an author and I will promise not to sue you. Some may argue that Zed was not "damaged" by this juvenile act, but a good lawyer would have no problem proving damage if push came to shove.

I suppose the bar for Microsoft will now be that they didn't impose the harshest legal remedy against you, and since they didn't they're a charitable company? Unlikely, people are praising them for not fining them $30k per copy of Windows/Office made illegally.

If a company's "DRM" policy were simply to contact offenders and tell them to stop being dicks, I think folks would love it.

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice way to promote your own blog. Quote: "Do the people who propose these theories not get letters in the post? Do they not send each other Christmas cards?: See - that's the part that shows that you fail to understand the problem. At all. I can send my mum, my SO or my brother short notices - and they will get what I mean. Because they already know me. They know my style of talking, my sense of humor and my way to…

I don't believe that emotions and intent are clearly visible in text. You have to put them in there. That's why you have to learn to write. If we expect to have an economy of so-called 'knowledge workers' who thrive on the basis of knowing stuff and communicating that to people as and when required, decent writing skills seems a pretty damn important thing to have. Instead, we don't teach people to write properly (an…

It is interesting that the highest voted thread at this point in time starts with "This is a good illustration of how tone doesn't come across well in writing." - and yet you don't call bullshit there, you do it here.

What you call for - as far as I can understand it - is a norm, a way to measure quality for texts. I say that this isn't realistically possible.

This works for people you know (easily, they can grok what you wanted to say). It might work for peers (they understand where you coming from, share some experiences and might know what you want to get at). In general, it doesn't work at all.

Things you completely ignore:

- Language: My first post started with the difference between reading in your native language and a foreign one. Depending on your readers understanding of your language you cannot transport your intentions in a reliable way. A smile, on the other hand, goes a long way to show that you are not actually mocking him/her and are a friendly person. Good luck, trying to make that universal.

- Feedback You can write a loooong text about a subject and cause me to explode when I read that midway through. If you tell me the same story face to face, you could probably read my expressions (depending again on context, how familiar we are, if you pay attention etc.) and navigate around some hurdles. You really want to tell a nice story about the Iraq war but notice how my mood turned darker? Good chance to ask me about my opinion and to take it slowly. How do you solve that in a text based conversation? Right.

- Context/Previous knowledge: You can talk about things I have no clue about, rather easily. Depending on your attitude and style of writing I might feel excluded, maybe offended, although it's entirely my fault. Face to face you could be Prince Charming. Without that and any knowledge of your readers schooling/education/knowledge, how are you going to make sure that you don't accidently embarass them?

I don't blame email or technology. The problem isn't new either. As long as we've been able to communicate in writing first, without knowing the other person, this problem existed. It's not about "emails". Neither about "technology sucks". It's about "words, without more context (previous encounters, a similar character, a shared history), don't carry the full information".

For me it's like a blurred image. If I know the thing that is depicted, I can clearly recognize it. If not, it's guesswork. You can try and make it easier, by blowing up your text to explain as much as possible and to try to (and fail) solve any ambiguous meaning, but in the end I'm still lost. On the recipients end, I have to rely on my information alone to understand what information you want to provide.

I have some good friends that are blind. In your world, they wouldn't miss that much even outside of online conversations: The text carries all the meaning, right? Nuances of the voice? Nice, but not necessary if the author is disciplined. Making faces, smiling etc.? Hey, you don't need that.

Are you really, really serious?

And you say "you have to learn how to write", when I say that reading is the part where the problem occurs? Can you really write "for everyone"? I'd argue that so far you cannot write for me, I'm still unsure if you are just trying to contine this discussion in a productive way (hints are some writing related parts of the comment, imo) or if you just want to talk me down (most of the comment, imo).

See 1, 2 and 3 and check if you actually _can_ write clear enough for everybody out there.

(FWIW: I used "me" and "I" in this text as a general replacement for "you" and "one", i.e. just examples. In addition, all examples are completely artifical as well and you cannot guess my feelings/viewpoints from this comment)

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#154
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're trying to wrap all this up in justifications of what he did this "in the name of". How someone justifies something like this is irrelevant. The basic rule for material, absent an explicit other license, is copyright. Shaw is generous enough to offer a less restrictive license, but that license is clear on its terms. To ignore the license given on a work, whether it's copyright, some CC non-commercial variant,…

For starters, I'm not justifying anything Martin did, as I never said he was right in any way, don't try to put words in mouth. As a matter of fact, I agreed on the following: 1) Zed has every right to complain due to his copyright and the license which his work carries 2) What Martin did was wrong, and as such he should accept that fact that the owner disapproves and take the work down (which he did) 3) Martin viola…

This is the last I'm saying to you on this topic:

Sometimes you wrong someone. Sometimes you do something classless. Maybe it's very deliberate, and maybe it's due to your sloppy carelessness, as Edme has copped to in this case.

In that situation, it's all on you. It's not on the other person. Everything you do to justify it or minimize it or recast the other person as the bad guy is wrong. This goes as well for your friends or random people sympathizing with you.

You may have to suck up some unkind words for what you've done - tough. You've earned them and the anger behind them, and you have to just deal with it.

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#155
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry man but the person initially belligerent was Zed with his remarks about class and his hostile approach. Martin, complied with that Zed asked, and tried to explain his reason, his intent, and why he thought it was ok. Zed again responded in an antagonizing way. If Zed had done the things the 'classy' way, he would have either sent a Cease and Desist notice or sent a POLITE message to the person he's addressi…

No. Full stop. The person wrong was Edme. The person wronged was Shaw. Absorb these facts. The person who tried to tell the person he wronged that he hadn't actually done anything wrong was Edme . The person who twittered about the person he'd wronged being a douchebag was Edme . The person who continued and escalated the confrontation, instead of apologizing, taking his lumps, and STFUing, was Edme . Absorb those fa…

Absorb this fact - at no point have I suggested that martin was right. The ONLY thing I am trying to assert is that Martin copied the book out of ignorance not malice and that Zed could (and in my opinion should) have been more polite.

Martin's actions after Zed's response are inexcusable. But that doesn't mean Zed wasn't being rude.

I subscribe to the "Don't be a douchebag" philosophy, and I think both Martin and Zed were being douchebags. BUT Martin wasn't being a douchebag when he copied the book, he was just being ignorant (and breaking the law).

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Full stop. The person wrong was Edme. The person wronged was Shaw. Absorb these facts. The person who tried to tell the person he wronged that he hadn't actually done anything wrong was Edme . The person who twittered about the person he'd wronged being a douchebag was Edme . The person who continued and escalated the confrontation, instead of apologizing, taking his lumps, and STFUing, was Edme . Absorb those fa…

Absorb this fact - at no point have I suggested that martin was right. The ONLY thing I am trying to assert is that Martin copied the book out of ignorance not malice and that Zed could (and in my opinion should) have been more polite. Martin's actions after Zed's response are inexcusable. But that doesn't mean Zed wasn't being rude. I subscribe to the "Don't be a douchebag" philosophy, and I think both Martin and Ze…

Thank you kind sir, I also agree that Martin was in the wrong, and that his actions after the fact where also douche like. All this could have been avoided if Zed had been classy enough to rise above his 'anger' and instead of being condescending and rude. Martin is at fault for making a stupid mistake anyone could have made and for being a jerk in his response, but the whole argument was started by Zed not being understanding and attacking a person who made no effort to wrong him and thought he was honoring Mr. Shaw's work.

If I made a mistake like this, I would gladly take down the work, issue a public apology, and submit salvageable content to the person doing the Ruby version of the book, but in no way am I going to be talked down because I wanted to do a good thing as if I was in the same league as a plagiarizer. It could have been a win/win situation for everyone.

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#157
There's faults on both sides. The guy is clearly in the wrong by failing to follow the copyright restrictions, but it was probably an honest mistake. Since he's spending to much time on the book, he's probably a fan of Zed's work. And he may be thinking he's adding value to the book. On the other side, Zed was completely within his rights to ask the guy to take repository down, but didn't need to make any assumptions about the guy's intentions or "class".

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And he could have politely asked Martin to take it down. Zed was being "not nice" no matter how you look at it. He could have been worse, but that's like saying you shouldn't be mad because I punched you in the stomach instead of the face. Edit: okay, the analogy is a strawman but seriously, just because someone could have been worse doesn't excuse their behavior. Telling someone they have no class is rude, especiall…

The bit that gets me about the defenses of Emde: He "punched" Shaw . Admittedly, this is a point that people defending the guy (and from the current state of the project's readme, himself) only acknowledge in the most grudging way, but it's there - Edme wronged the guy. But I'm to take it that Shaw is wrong because he's not friendly in his response to that? It's trite to make remarks about Asperger, social dysfunctio…

No, he bumped into Shaw. Nothing points towards malice at all. In most parts of modern society, the honest response would be along the lines of, "Dude, what were you thinking?"

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#159
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On behalf of everyone who tries to communicate over the internet, I'd like to thank you for assuming the nicer interpretation. It's easy to misinterpret someone's tone, and written communication goes so much more smoothly when people avoid making angry assumptions.

I'm not sure "Hey, I write stuff using your software, you should tolerate my mistreatment of you better!" is a nicer interpretation.

No, but the "Hey I write stuff using your software, I never meant to mistreat you." is.

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#160
post #87

This is clearly not plagiarism. At no point did the translator take credit for the original work. There is a definition for plagiarism; it involves taking credit for someone else's original work. Zed would probably have done better by simply quoting the license and asking him to take it down (because of copywrite infringement) instead of incorrectly accusing him of plagiarism (which implies he was doing the translati…

Factual correctness warrants down vote? Seriously?

"the wrongful appropriation, close imitation, or purloining and publication, of another author's language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions, and the representation of them as one's own original work." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism).

This was not plagiarism.

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