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"Please take this down and write your own book."

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Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#91

Post by bmm6o »

pjscott wrote: post #76
scott_s wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it not as "I'm an amazing programmer because I work for Engine Yard," but "I work for a company that clearly depends on your work - I respect what you've done."

On behalf of everyone who tries to communicate over the internet, I'd like to thank you for assuming the nicer interpretation. It's easy to misinterpret someone's tone, and written communication goes so much more smoothly when people avoid making angry assumptions.

It's not just about choosing to read the more charitable interpretation. The second reading requires more context than the first one. If you aren't aware of the additional facts you mention, it's very difficult to read the comment in a positive way.

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#92

Post by rhizome »

Semiapies wrote: post #66
jasonkester wrote: post #7

This is a good illustration of how tone doesn't come across well in writing. Reading the comment by the original author, it sounded like a friendly request to please take the content down. The guy whose site it was clearly didn't see it that way and responded as though he'd been viscously attacked. He ends up coming across as quite angry, when more likely he was just rattled and feeling defensive. I guess the takeawa…

Or, when someone's pointing out that you're wronging him, don't even worry about interpretation of tone. Worry about whether you've done something wrong, and if you have, then 1) fix it, 2) apologize, and finally 3) don't do that again . "Make excuses" and "berate the person for being angered by your wrongdoing" are not on this list.

"How dare that person care more than I think he should."

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#93

Post by DanHulton »

epo wrote: post #13
jasonkester wrote: post #7

This is a good illustration of how tone doesn't come across well in writing. Reading the comment by the original author, it sounded like a friendly request to please take the content down. The guy whose site it was clearly didn't see it that way and responded as though he'd been viscously attacked. He ends up coming across as quite angry, when more likely he was just rattled and feeling defensive. I guess the takeawa…

Given the circumstances I thought Zed was reasonably civil.

Frankly, the older I get, the more respect I have for the guy.

A lot of folks would have responded with a lawyer or at least a legal nastygram. Zed didn't even mention the law, just asked (asked!) the guy to take it down, and took the time to refute and explain all the guy's misconceptions.

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#95

Post by Semiapies »

jemfinch wrote: post #11
jasonkester wrote: post #7

This is a good illustration of how tone doesn't come across well in writing. Reading the comment by the original author, it sounded like a friendly request to please take the content down. The guy whose site it was clearly didn't see it that way and responded as though he'd been viscously attacked. He ends up coming across as quite angry, when more likely he was just rattled and feeling defensive. I guess the takeawa…

It's Zed Shaw. That pretty much rules out it being a friendly request ;) With that said, such situations are exactly the sort that mildly unfriendly requests are appropriate for. I did the same thing when someone took my BSD licensed code, replaced my name in the copyright notice with his own, and put it up on github. Fundamentally, you're not making a request, you're giving a command.

And he didn't even involve a lawyer, so he's already doing the guy a favor.

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#96

Post by scott_s »

bmm6o wrote: post #91
pjscott wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On behalf of everyone who tries to communicate over the internet, I'd like to thank you for assuming the nicer interpretation. It's easy to misinterpret someone's tone, and written communication goes so much more smoothly when people avoid making angry assumptions.

It's not just about choosing to read the more charitable interpretation. The second reading requires more context than the first one. If you aren't aware of the additional facts you mention, it's very difficult to read the comment in a positive way.

I agree. Clear writing, which can be read on its own without an outside context, also requires more effort.

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#97

Post by brown9-2 »

voodootikigod wrote: post #42

The worst part of this situation is how martinemde is portending himself to be a "translator" like from English to Spanish, ignorant of the fact that you even need permission to do that. http://twitter.com/martinemde Also its pretty crappy how the Ruby Protection Squad came to his rescue with blind hate for Zed throwing comments like "Wow didn't even know who Zed Shaw was, now the first thing I learned about him is t…

I think your first point here is excellent, but do we really need to care about what some random (as far as I can tell) Twitter user thinks about Zed? On the Internet you can find a negative comment about anyone by someone, somewhere.

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#98

Post by rhizome »

joshuacc wrote: post #38

Interestingly, Martin has now updated the readme https://github.com/martinemde/learn-ruby-the-hard-way#readme He concedes both of Zed's main points: 1. That he didn't have a legal right to "translate" the book 2. That "translating" the book from Python to Ruby didn't work all that well anyway The rest of the message boils down to a complaint that Zed wasn't nice enough in his takedown request. While Zed could have ph…

Not only that, but it seems very strange not to be aware of the tradition of bluntness from engineering types, and to interpret it negatively.

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#99

Post by ay »

amadiver wrote: post #69
jasonkester wrote: post #7

This is a good illustration of how tone doesn't come across well in writing. Reading the comment by the original author, it sounded like a friendly request to please take the content down. The guy whose site it was clearly didn't see it that way and responded as though he'd been viscously attacked. He ends up coming across as quite angry, when more likely he was just rattled and feeling defensive. I guess the takeawa…

"If you want to write a similar book for Ruby then have some class and use your own words and write your own book." I'd say that's harsh, and unnecessary. I'd feel attacked if that was directed at me, too, especially if I felt (rightly or not) that I'd kept things on the level. No one needs to be polite, especially when they feel the need to protect their work. But in not doing so, they belie a certain amount of lack…

How many times have you written a nice and polite words when the fruit of your passionate labor has been taken without your consent and dealt with in a way that you consider inappropriate ?

I've once had, and I can fully understand Zed, maybe, did experience a certain emotion in it.

If I were to deal with a similar situation coldly without a drama and emotion, I'd simply spend $6 (or how much the registered mail costs?), sent a DMCA takedown notice, and be done with it.

In any case - the real drama and theatre happens in the comments to the original communication.

Some guy made a mistake. Zed has asked to take it down. He took it down. The fact whether Zed has asked it with a twist or not, is o(1) compared to the quality of the subsequent comments on that page. That part is a real shame, in my opinion.

(edit: re-reading your comment, maybe I have misunderstood it - re. the fact that the done-with matters are promoted on HN "for the sake of drama" - well, as soon as we all remain civil and try to not step over each others' toes, I do not think it is a problem - and is actually a good case study. As soon as noone starts to throw tomatoes into some folk who happened to make an honest mistake and quickly corrected it.)

Re: "Please take this down and write your own book."

#100

Post by rhizome »

citricsquid wrote: post #50
JanezStupar wrote: post #26

This is Zeeed Shaaaaw!!! I have never met the guy, but I surely hope that I get the privilege some day, even if he just picks on me and tells me that my work is worthless piece of junk and that if it implodes in a second it would be a service to the world - because that might be single most insightful and sincere analysis one might receive. Kudos to anyone with a pair, that is capable of speaking their mind in today'…

Like it or not Zed is entirely right here. It's his work, the guy had no permission, it has nothing to do with being "politically correct" it has everything to do with no being a dick and respecting a persons ownership and the effort they put into something. Whether or not Zed is the biggest dick in the world is irrelevant.

Parent actually agrees with you, they're just saying that it would be PC forces that push back on Zed taking this tone, and kudos to him for not succumbing.
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