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Alphabet spinoff Malta raises $26M for technology to store power in molten salt

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Re: Alphabet spinoff Malta raises $26M for technology to store power in molten salt

#11

Post by pytester »

Retric wrote: post #5

The rather extreme losses associated with electricity > heat > heat engine > electricity seem like an absolute deal killer. Assuming they are at an extreme 50% round trip efficiency you need to be extremely cheap to have a hope of breaking even. Worse heat has fairly low energy density and cools over time so they can’t really scale the up or down that much. It might be possible if they where starting with heat, but f…

Germany and California have both experienced negative electricity prices. The economics of this kind of battery could very well work with a low efficiency if it's cheap to build.

Re: Alphabet spinoff Malta raises $26M for technology to store power in molten salt

#12

Post by TaylorAlexander »

andbberger wrote: post #8

On a related note - could someone please develop a mass-produced stirling engine for low-temp differential residential use??

I’ve dreamed of this too, as it would be very easy to deploy. However I think someone mentioned that low differential sterling systems just don’t have much power in them period. I’m not sure though.

Re: Alphabet spinoff Malta raises $26M for technology to store power in molten salt

#13

Post by bch »

darawk wrote: post #10
bch wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the blog post: > Malta’s solution is to store electricity as heat in high temperature molten salt and cold in a low temperature liquid for days, or even weeks, until it’s needed. The key insight behind Malta is that electricity can be stored as heat in high temperature molten salt and cold in a low temperature liquid for days, or even weeks, until it’s needed. The key insight is an oft forgotten energy storage f…

Not sure if you noticed, but the phrase "Key insight" links to a scientific paper: https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.4994054

Yes, and to be clear, I’m interested (enamoured, even) in heat, by my long-running interest in air-cooled engines (VW, BMW, Porsche), and am fascinated with what’s going on here. My citation above was really a cheap shot at bad copy.

Re: Alphabet spinoff Malta raises $26M for technology to store power in molten salt

#14

Post by ggm »

Retric wrote: post #5

The rather extreme losses associated with electricity > heat > heat engine > electricity seem like an absolute deal killer. Assuming they are at an extreme 50% round trip efficiency you need to be extremely cheap to have a hope of breaking even. Worse heat has fairly low energy density and cools over time so they can’t really scale the up or down that much. It might be possible if they where starting with heat, but f…

Compare the economics of loss here, to the economics of not storing the electricity, and so wasting it in other ways. Yes, there is a round-trip loss through the system. No, this is not always in economics, an insurmountable problem.

For instance, "the hump" which was the US air shipment of materiel to China, in order to bomb Japanese forces was obviously a major loss maker in energy terms. Some huge multiplier of fuel spent to send fuel, worse than 5:1. Was it "worth" it? Yes! the war effort demanded the loss be borne.

So with this energy storage. Energy in the form of electricity is fleeting. If you don't convert it to a persisting potential energy form, it isn't there when you want it. Loss in the system is well understood by the engineers, financiers, planners.

Pumped Hydro has losses. Compressed Air has losses. Conversion to Ammonia or Hydrogen has losses. Winching concrete uphill in trains has losses.

Of all of these, thermal storage of energy in molten salt is perhaps the best understood. Its not unusual.

TL;DR short statements like "buuut the losses" are silly. This is not an absolute deal killer, it's an understood problem.

Re: Alphabet spinoff Malta raises $26M for technology to store power in molten salt

#15

Post by jfoster »

> Now X designs projects with two primary goals: to become a standalone Alphabet division or spin out into an independent company.

The difference being that Alphabet retains 100% vs retaining X%? Presumably they're spinning out whenever the capital required would be much more than they want to put in, or the tech seems promising but perhaps not as profitable as they would like?

Re: Alphabet spinoff Malta raises $26M for technology to store power in molten salt

#16

Post by ams6110 »

bch wrote: post #9
partingshots wrote: post #2

Blog post from the Malta team on their graduation from X with their molten salt battery grid energy storage play. https://blog.x.company/introducing-malta-81bceb559061

From the blog post: > Malta’s solution is to store electricity as heat in high temperature molten salt and cold in a low temperature liquid for days, or even weeks, until it’s needed. The key insight behind Malta is that electricity can be stored as heat in high temperature molten salt and cold in a low temperature liquid for days, or even weeks, until it’s needed. The key insight is an oft forgotten energy storage f…

How can energy be stored as cold? Cold is by definition the absence of energy.

Re: Alphabet spinoff Malta raises $26M for technology to store power in molten salt

#17

Post by antidesitter »

ams6110 wrote: post #16
bch wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the blog post: > Malta’s solution is to store electricity as heat in high temperature molten salt and cold in a low temperature liquid for days, or even weeks, until it’s needed. The key insight behind Malta is that electricity can be stored as heat in high temperature molten salt and cold in a low temperature liquid for days, or even weeks, until it’s needed. The key insight is an oft forgotten energy storage f…

How can energy be stored as cold? Cold is by definition the absence of energy.

Temperature differences are what drive heat engines, i.e. you need a hot and a cold(er) reservoir. A nice demonstration of this is a handheld Stirling engine, which you can power by placing ice at the bottom (since it’s colder than the surrounding environment).

Re: Alphabet spinoff Malta raises $26M for technology to store power in molten salt

#20

Post by robertelder »

ams6110 wrote: post #16
bch wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the blog post: > Malta’s solution is to store electricity as heat in high temperature molten salt and cold in a low temperature liquid for days, or even weeks, until it’s needed. The key insight behind Malta is that electricity can be stored as heat in high temperature molten salt and cold in a low temperature liquid for days, or even weeks, until it’s needed. The key insight is an oft forgotten energy storage f…

How can energy be stored as cold? Cold is by definition the absence of energy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_generator
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