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EPIC Lawsuit to Suspend Deployment of Body Scanners at US Airports

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Re: EPIC Lawsuit to Suspend Deployment of Body Scanners at US Airports

#81
post #69
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a hack, just go through the first class line regardless of the class you're flying in. I know several people who do this, and none have been questioned about it. The obvious response is: "Why should paying the airline more money get people better treatment from the Federal government?".

In my experience this works every time at Dulles international (IAD) but never works at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International (ATL). At ATL you get sent to the back of the normal line.

The hack is to print FIRST on your boarding pass. The person checking whether or not you are allowed in the priority line does not have access to the reservation system to check that you are actually in first class. You keep your real boarding pass in your pocket and show that to the TSA and gate agent.

Note: untested. I get to use the first-class lines anyway :P

Re: EPIC Lawsuit to Suspend Deployment of Body Scanners at US Airports

#82
post #72
post #58

My guess is they're going to get shellacked. The first thing you have to understand here is that the constitutionality of airport searches isn't in question. SCOTUS has upheld a doctrine of "administrative searches", taken in order to advance public safety rather than criminal investigations, which are explicitly intended to apply universally, without a warrant, and without individualized suspicion. The second bit of…

You're mistaken in practically every assertion you make above. Without going over a point-by-point of the various ways your post is incorrect (e.g. regarding the scope of administrative searches; the ability of the SCOTUS to regulate searches at jails; the actual lawsuits which have resulted in most jails being much more limited in the scope of their searches absent reasonable suspicion; the TSA's inability to detect…

I dispute this:

>The energy is absorbed mostly in the skin, NOT throughout the volume of the entire body as with other types of ionizing radiation. Also, the dosage is delivered in a few (under 30) seconds. You have to consider dose per unit time; the figures often mentioned for long flights mention the total dose, which is distributed over a period of HOURS.

First, your comparison is misleading. The dose of a backscatter x-ray is about 0.02 uSv [1]. The dose rate at 40,000 ft is around 6 uSv/hour [2]. Simply sitting in an airplane exposes you to the equivalent of a backscatter x-ray every 12 seconds (not "hours"). The dose rates are comparable; the flights last hundreds of times longer, hence give hundreds of times higher doses.

Second, your emphasis on "dose per unit time" (or dose rate) isn't actually important. For low doses (and these are EXTREMELY low doses), there is no difference between fast and slow exposure [3]:

>When you are asked whether there is a critical time period over which 1 rem of dose may have a greater biological impact than it might otherwise have, the answer is "No." One rem of dose is sufficiently low that whether it was delivered within one second or spread over a year or more, we would not expect any difference in biological effects.

(Note 1 rem = 0.01 Sievert (Sv) -- 500,000x higher than a backscatter x-ray).

[1] http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1268330...

[2] http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/info/RadHaz.html

[3] https://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q8325.html

Re: EPIC Lawsuit to Suspend Deployment of Body Scanners at US Airports

#83
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that (unless otherwise worded) the Constitution's "protections" are actually restrictions on the government, and apply everywhere and always to government agents acting under constitutional authority. As such, the nationality of the those with whom the government interacts is irrelevant. I imagine that you can opt-out of the electronic strip search, just as US citizens can. An interesting, though sadly irrelevan…

Nationality may be irrelevant, but a US border setting certainly is not. As a rule of thumb: you have drastically diminished rights at the US border.

Not really. If they arrest you, you still have to be arraigned within 24 hours and have to be given a speedy jury trial.

It's really only the search-and-seizure business that does not apply. They think.

Re: EPIC Lawsuit to Suspend Deployment of Body Scanners at US Airports

#84
post #79
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're mistaken in practically every assertion you make above. Without going over a point-by-point of the various ways your post is incorrect (e.g. regarding the scope of administrative searches; the ability of the SCOTUS to regulate searches at jails; the actual lawsuits which have resulted in most jails being much more limited in the scope of their searches absent reasonable suspicion; the TSA's inability to detect…

Well said nubian. I sent this link to a civil liberties lawyer who didn't think much at all of tptacek's comment and was surprised to see it rated so highly.

Not myself being a lawyer, I don't mind hearing this at all. What I mind slightly is not knowing why I'm wrong. Help me out!

Re: EPIC Lawsuit to Suspend Deployment of Body Scanners at US Airports

#85
post #77
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're mistaken in practically every assertion you make above. Without going over a point-by-point of the various ways your post is incorrect (e.g. regarding the scope of administrative searches; the ability of the SCOTUS to regulate searches at jails; the actual lawsuits which have resulted in most jails being much more limited in the scope of their searches absent reasonable suspicion; the TSA's inability to detect…

Yeah, uh, I don't disagree with anything (except your first graf) you wrote, and I'm glad to give you a chance to get that off your chest, but, want to bet?

(Oh, I get it. I read your comment and replied while waiting for someone for dinner; now, at home, it's apparent that you think I'm somehow in favor of full body scans. Read to the end of the comment. Note: I don't think you actually replied to any of my points.)

Re: EPIC Lawsuit to Suspend Deployment of Body Scanners at US Airports

#86
post #58

My guess is they're going to get shellacked. The first thing you have to understand here is that the constitutionality of airport searches isn't in question. SCOTUS has upheld a doctrine of "administrative searches", taken in order to advance public safety rather than criminal investigations, which are explicitly intended to apply universally, without a warrant, and without individualized suspicion. The second bit of…

The unconstitutionality of airport searches is not in question. The constitution does not have an "administrative search" exception. I understand that you're talking about the ruling of the SCOTUS, but I want to impress upon you the fact that the vast majority of people have never read the constitution, and even among those who claim they have, the vast majority apparently have not done so close enough to overcome the misinformation that exists in popular media about what the constitution says.

For instance, the SCOTUS does not have the power, under the constitution, to deem something as constitutional. They may have ruled (incorrectly, we agree) a dozen times in the past in various cases that "Administrative searches" were legal, but that does not create precedent (another legal term that is not recognized by the constitution) and it does not mean that such searches are legal. The Supreme Court usurped this power by ruling that it had this power in Mabury vs. Madison.

A reading of the constitution finds no creation of federal policing powers in the enumerated powers clause, and the fourth ammendment makes the point very clear. Thus if anyone is to say that this is "constitutional", they must provide a citation, to the constitution, of powers authorizing it.

The constitution was written in plain language requiring essentially no interpretation. It was designed to be enforced by the people, at gunpoint. It was written by revolutionaries, not people who believed in the concept of "free speech zones" or the idea that a judge could make crimes legal because they benefit the state.

The mechanism by which the criminal actions of the US Government become to be seen as legitimate is that of the deferrence to the SCOTUS as if it were the final arbiter of whether something is constitutional or not.

It is not. The constitution is supreme over the SCOTUS (and must be, otherwise how could it have created the SCOTUS and laid out it's jurisdiction?)

And the constitution is absolutely clear on this matter.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

No probable cause, no warrants "particularly describing the place to be search and the things to be siezed"-- makes every search a crime under USC 18-242.

You're probably right that they will get shellacked, but this is not because these searches are constitutional, but because the government is a corrupt criminal enterprise, with a monopoly over the concept of "justice" and thus will rule in its own favor, time and again.

It is time for americans to recognize that these gestapo tactics (strip searches and molesting children) are the actions of an illegitimate and out of control criminal conspiracy.... not a legitimate, let alone, constitutional, government.

Re: EPIC Lawsuit to Suspend Deployment of Body Scanners at US Airports

#87

Of course if you were a terrorist wouldn't a line of hundreds of people all being crowded into one space BEFORE security make a much nicer target? And if somebody did detonate a backpack full of nails in the security queue how they react - more security and make the queues longer?

It seems to me the most expeditious way to keep people safe from bomb attacks at the airport would be to have more flights with smaller airplanes that way you reduce the concentration of people and remove the queues. If you have 40 passengers on a plane and 10 of them are terrorists, then that leaves 30+crew to resist them less small children and cripples (so probably, pulling a number out of the air, 15-25 people to…

But you still have queues as 100,000 people all have to get into the airport through one security point.

At my local airport they have even built it underground so you queue for security in a long sloping concrete passageway - brilliantly designed for maximum casualties, hardest exit and most difficult to fight a fire in

Re: EPIC Lawsuit to Suspend Deployment of Body Scanners at US Airports

#88
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience this works every time at Dulles international (IAD) but never works at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International (ATL). At ATL you get sent to the back of the normal line.

The hack is to print FIRST on your boarding pass. The person checking whether or not you are allowed in the priority line does not have access to the reservation system to check that you are actually in first class. You keep your real boarding pass in your pocket and show that to the TSA and gate agent. Note: untested. I get to use the first-class lines anyway :P

And, hey, worst case you get detained by security and charged with a felony.

Re: EPIC Lawsuit to Suspend Deployment of Body Scanners at US Airports

#89
post #76
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might agree for myself, but what about our wives and children? We simply can't allow it.

Your wife can probably make up her own mind.

Yes, she certainly can and she will (she's certainly made of sterner stuff than I am), but I consider it my privilege to serve as an outer "bumper" to the real world for my family.

Re: EPIC Lawsuit to Suspend Deployment of Body Scanners at US Airports

#90
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hack is to print FIRST on your boarding pass. The person checking whether or not you are allowed in the priority line does not have access to the reservation system to check that you are actually in first class. You keep your real boarding pass in your pocket and show that to the TSA and gate agent. Note: untested. I get to use the first-class lines anyway :P

And, hey, worst case you get detained by security and charged with a felony.

An easy one to talk yourself out of, though: "Oh, something must have happened to my upgrade since I printed my boarding pass last night."

The 1950s-era reservation system isn't going to refute your story.

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