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Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

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Re: Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

#81

Post by kolleykibber »

maxxxxx wrote: post #31
stcredzero wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone from the US who has flown overseas to modern, industrialized countries in the past decades will note the aging look of the US. Given overall industrial and cultural trends, why wouldn't everyone just keep building new stuff every 15 years? This would certainly fit the Chinese regime's policy of increasing GDP. (We'll have to crack the problem of carbon neutral concrete sometime.)

"Anyone from the US who has flown overseas to modern, industrialized countries in the past decades will note the aging look of the US" True. Whenever I get visitors from Germany they always comment on how run down a lot of parts of the US look.

Landing in any American Airport never fails to shock me. Equally the clash between passport control and the commercialism of the rest of the airport. I was first in SFO in 1995, I'm pretty sure there hasn't been an update to border control since then, and I'm always given a good few hours to study the place.

Re: Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

#83

Post by marnett »

orev wrote: post #76
beamatronic wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could have that too if our government had unchecked eminent domain power. Is that what we want? Seems to be one or the other.

Not saying it’s the solution, but giving the government that power might incentivize people to be more involved with local government and demand more accountability. Right now nobody really pays attention to what they are doing.

The US government could build out infrastructure if it desired. We did in the past and we could today. It doesn't meet the profit margins that the MIC can.

Re: Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

#84

Post by jka »

International security is important, and military defense spending is a large requirement for that; despite all the propaganda I personally still view the U.S. and the west as positive forces for democracy and freedom; although certainly I'm no fan of 'pushing' these on other countries; I think it's always better if the benefits of democracy and international co-operation can become self-apparent and lead to self-guided regime change.

But assuming anyway that the spending is a requirement - the question becomes how efficient that spending is, and where the money is really going. If it's being spent efficiently to support defense operations and capabilities, that's great - if it's going to line the pockets of contractors and corporations spun up largely to capture wealth, that's not so great (for many cases it's probably somewhere in a spectrum).

Re-investing whatever efficiencies can be saved from careful economies into both better military infrastructure and civilian infrastructure seems like it'd massively benefit everyone. (although worth noting that cost-cutting itself also has to be done in a way that doesn't impact security; in some cases I can imagine that defunding risky or questionable projects could in fact improve security)

Re: Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

#85

Post by snowwrestler »

fowkswe wrote: post #36

Why haven't the ecosystem of infrastructure companies lobbied and infiltrated government the way that defense companies have?

Infrastructure spending has sadly become partisan because a higher percentage of infrastructure workers are unionized than in the broader economy.

Obama and the Democratic Congress delivered a stimulus bill in 2009 that was largely "shovel-ready" infrastructure spending. Because of that, it was attacked by the GOP, who then took over Congress and has proceeded to underfund infrastructure as a means of weakening unions. And of course they're now flying an "America First" flag and wondering why things aren't better.

The power of companies in the political process is easy to overstate. Political movements are an industry unto themselves and sometimes easily overwhelm corporate priorities. The military as a cultural force in America politics is very powerful... military contractors essentially surf this wave. They didn't create it; they are far too stupid for that. It was created by veterans and politicians and the consulting ecosystem that supports them. It is in some respects the pendulum still swinging back from the darkest days of the post-Vietnam War period, when people would spit on vets and call them "baby killers."

At this point in time, construction workers--and especially unionized construction workers--are not nearly as strong a cultural force, so infrastructure companies have a much smaller wave to surf.

That could be changing with Trump, but who knows what is real with that guy. He is all talk on a large number of subjects... he has done what he said he would in trade and immigration, but not even close in healthcare or infrastructure. Ironically for all his talk of America First, Trump's personal attention is focused almost exclusively outward, at allies, trading partners, and immigrants.

Re: Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

#86

Post by mattnewton »

aphextron wrote: post #71

>He said the U.S. has wasted over $14 trillion in fighting wars over the past 30 years rather than investing in infrastructure at home. The US spent $14 trillion upholding a world order of free trade and international maritime law which directly benefited China and was responsible for its own export based growth over the last 30 years. We're seeing that global order realign now, with things like Brexit and Trump, but…

I think we need a citation on money being the cost to keeping those shipping lanes open. We already spend much more than China and Russia combined, it’s not easy to imagine that could be reduced and we could still keep those countries in check. My understanding was the major draws were unending wars and country building projects in the midddle east, with large military spending projects the military didn’t ask for but senators bought them anyways as a distant second.

Re: Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

#87

Post by barbecue_sauce »

excalibur wrote: post #14
mistrial9 wrote: post #4

I dont care who says this - it is true.

Agreed, completely on point regardless of source. History has proven trickle-down economics to be ineffective, and Michael Douglas' "greed is good" to be objectively false.

Attributing "greed is good" to Michael Douglas is like attributing "Soon the world will feel the loving grip of the Pax Bisonica!" to Raúl Juliá.

Re: Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

#88

Post by JackFr »

atonse wrote: post #22
dragthor wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. At least in the US we use our infrastructure. In China they build stuff just to build stuff.

This kind of blind exceptionalism is exactly why nothing ever moves here. We are stuck in 30 years ago of "we're so much better than everyone" that we're refusing to see how our lead has quickly worsened, and also attacking the messenger's background instead of taking the message to heart. I think we're still leaders in education, for example, but that's under threat. China has built thousands of miles of high speed…

> We are stuck in 30 years ago of "we're so much better than everyone" that we're refusing to see how our lead has quickly worsened

Those who have lived through the scares geopolitical threat of the Cold War in the 1970's, and the economic threat of Japan Inc. in the 1980's can be a little more circumspect about the growing Chinese "threat". I don't have illusions about "we're so much better", but we do have something special. Market driven economies and stable liberal democratic structures have served us quite well, from the explosion in growth in the Netherlands in the 17th century, through the expansion of Great Britain in the 18th and 19th and down to the United States in the 20th. That Western Europe would rather pay for a social safety net rather than an expansive military is a public choice.

Should the US invest more in infrastructure? Possibly. At the same time, I'm skeptical to things that have a whiff of industrial policy and central planning, it really hasn't worked as well for those who have embraced it.

Re: Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

#89

Post by snowwrestler »

beamatronic wrote: post #57
snow_mac wrote: post #42

This is so true. I went to Shanghai about 3 summers ago right when Denver was finishing up the "A Line" train from Downtown to the Airport. This project cost over a billion dollars and the damn thing can't run smoothly or stay operational. Tons of issues. Meanwhile we took the Maglev train from the Pudong Airport to the Shanghai City Center. The Maglev cost $1.2 billion dollars [1]. The train can travel up to 270 MPH…

We could have that too if our government had unchecked eminent domain power. Is that what we want? Seems to be one or the other.

U.S. governments basically do have unchecked eminent domain power, see the Kelo Supreme Court decision.

Re: Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

#90

Post by [deleted] »

beamatronic wrote: post #57
snow_mac wrote: post #42

This is so true. I went to Shanghai about 3 summers ago right when Denver was finishing up the "A Line" train from Downtown to the Airport. This project cost over a billion dollars and the damn thing can't run smoothly or stay operational. Tons of issues. Meanwhile we took the Maglev train from the Pudong Airport to the Shanghai City Center. The Maglev cost $1.2 billion dollars [1]. The train can travel up to 270 MPH…

We could have that too if our government had unchecked eminent domain power. Is that what we want? Seems to be one or the other.

[deleted]
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