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Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

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Re: Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

#71
>He said the U.S. has wasted over $14 trillion in fighting wars over the past 30 years rather than investing in infrastructure at home.

The US spent $14 trillion upholding a world order of free trade and international maritime law which directly benefited China and was responsible for its own export based growth over the last 30 years. We're seeing that global order realign now, with things like Brexit and Trump, but I'm not sure we want a world without the US spending this kind of money.

Would it be a better if China controlled all navigation within the South China Sea? Why don't we just let Putin roll over the Baltics? That's the real reasoning behind US defense spending. Sure you can point to Iraq and Afghanistan line items, but the vast majority of recurring spending is on strategic naval and air forces to pursue long term objectives like this.

Re: Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

#73

This is so true. I went to Shanghai about 3 summers ago right when Denver was finishing up the "A Line" train from Downtown to the Airport. This project cost over a billion dollars and the damn thing can't run smoothly or stay operational. Tons of issues. Meanwhile we took the Maglev train from the Pudong Airport to the Shanghai City Center. The Maglev cost $1.2 billion dollars [1]. The train can travel up to 270 MPH…

> Meanwhile we took the Maglev train from the Pudong Airport to the Shanghai City Center

This has been operational since 2002/2004 so about 15 years ago.

Re: Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

#74
post #8

[flagged]

Yup. At least in the US we use our infrastructure. In China they build stuff just to build stuff.

The US has profited immensely from "building stuff to build stuff" back from the new deal programs in the 30's, wartime factory infrastructure investments in the 40's, as well as massive infrastructure buildout of the highway systems, water and sewers, etc. in the 50-60's. I think coasting on a lot of that build out is what allowed lower than typical infrastructure expenditures for many decades, but also gave us (and our political/business leadership that grew up in those years), a warped low view of how much infrastructure investment is reasonable.

Re: Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

#76

This is so true. I went to Shanghai about 3 summers ago right when Denver was finishing up the "A Line" train from Downtown to the Airport. This project cost over a billion dollars and the damn thing can't run smoothly or stay operational. Tons of issues. Meanwhile we took the Maglev train from the Pudong Airport to the Shanghai City Center. The Maglev cost $1.2 billion dollars [1]. The train can travel up to 270 MPH…

We could have that too if our government had unchecked eminent domain power. Is that what we want? Seems to be one or the other.

Not saying it’s the solution, but giving the government that power might incentivize people to be more involved with local government and demand more accountability. Right now nobody really pays attention to what they are doing.

Re: Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

#77

The US wasted trillions on warfare period -- they could have just not spent it, and either not run up the debt or left that money in private hands.

Although I totally agree we shouldn't have spent trillions on war, I have a question about this whole "our country spent on X rather than Y"

Most of the money CIRCULATES in a country. So it's not like it's one shot and done. The money was paid to some people who then spent it back into the economy and it went round and round. So at most we diverted a certain number of hops of a huge amount of money to a thing.

I look at money as sort of wheels with cogs turning at a certain speed. When you launch some new project, it might pick up momentum by having other cogs spin it up. It can even "grow" in market cap depending on whether increased demand for it drives up the prices for it. But that price can also drop to zero later, as new things come out, eliminating vast swaths of "wealth" in a stock or cryptocurrency or whatever.

So back to my question... money isn't just a one-time resource that a country can spend and can never get back. However, from the point of view of a government, they only get so much revenue per year, so it should be said about the US government and not the country as a whole. The government taxes and diverts money to things that individuals would not do on their own. Fiat currencies allow further powers to print money — before WW2 pundits thought that military activities on such scale were simply not possible to be funded with taxes etc.

Everywhere in the world I go, I see the vast majority of people are regular folks who just want to put food on the table and laugh with their family. It’s the governments and media that whips up all this warfare and propaganda and we wind up paying for it, and people on the other side of the world wind up dying as a result. That’s what the tragedy is. The money paid to eg Blackwater mercenaries or the rest of the military industrial complex probably found its way back to the US economy in short order.

Re: Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

#78

This is so true. I went to Shanghai about 3 summers ago right when Denver was finishing up the "A Line" train from Downtown to the Airport. This project cost over a billion dollars and the damn thing can't run smoothly or stay operational. Tons of issues. Meanwhile we took the Maglev train from the Pudong Airport to the Shanghai City Center. The Maglev cost $1.2 billion dollars [1]. The train can travel up to 270 MPH…

We could have that too if our government had unchecked eminent domain power. Is that what we want? Seems to be one or the other.

The U.S. federal government used unchecked eminent domain power when building out interstate system infrastructure. So this is not really applicable.

Re: Jack Ma: US wasted trillions on warfare instead of investing in infrastructure

#80
post #27
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our roads are bad. We lack decent public transportation. Our internet speeds are slow and overly exspensive. We do not have most of the infrastructure we need. Jack Ma calls it warfare you call it defense. Whatever term you wish to use is fine with me. The trillions we spent on defense in Iraq and Afghanistan certainly was not well spent. We do have an obligation to defend the Ukraine against Russian attacks. That wa…

The deal with Ukraine only requires us to defend them against nuclear attacks, and even then, the only requirement is to seek action in the UN. For conventional attacks, our only obligation is not to attack ourselves. This is such a common misconception. I wonder where it came from. The Budapest Memorandum is short and understandable. Is this just a game of telephone gone badly wrong, or is there propaganda at work?

The only actions explicitly addressed in the memorandum involve nuclear attack, the other sections point to other treaties that arguably should mandate defense.
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