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An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

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Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#61
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Clean coal" was always a bullshit term like "light cigarettes". It was just a way to delay any real action.

Clean coal refers to scrubbing pollutants and possibly CO2 from emissions. It isn't necessarily bullshit.

It can refer to: "reduce oxides of nitrogen (NOX) and sulfur dioxide (SO2) emission"

This was a boondoggle near my hometown: sttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healy_Clean_Coal_Project

Sheetrock/gypsum board is another byproduct: https://www.buildinggreen.com/primer/synthetic-gypsum

There was a wave of flue gas gypsum emitting acidic gasses around 2009, eating through copper plumbing and wiring. This was in Florida.

CO2 still has to go somewhere. Carbonation, industrial gasses, into the ground, or into the air.

I'm skeptical of clean or green in any product name. It's more about marketing.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an incredible number of norms you and most everybody else adheres to every single day. Some of them even obviously ridiculous and without any objective basis, like "don't wear white socks and sandals". Nobody charges you money, not even if you ignore such norms. And yet you comply - and the corset of cultural norms is far tighter than you realize (unless you start thinking about it, but even then it's hard t…

The rules you mention are very localized, and granular on sub-social level. Me & my friends across the country may follow similar rules, but my next-door neighbours will follow different rules. Alas, money is always an overriding concern. Your adherence to local cultural regulations may or may not buy you good karma, but that karma is not redeemable beyond your current social group. You won't pay for supplies out of…

> The rules you mention are very localized

So what???

> but my next-door neighbours will follow different rules.

Some rules are different, many are not.

> Alas, money is always an overriding concern.

No it isn't, see what I wrote.

Your entire comment is an amazing display of cluelessness about the forces acting on you. Cultural norms are a FAR bigger factor. Yes you don't realize it, see what I wrote.

You are also quite confused about what is being discussed. What is that about building houses and buying stuff? If the topic is too difficult for you, just don't comment, posting incoherent random thoughts is useless. Yes, we indeed use money in the economy, great insight.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#63
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clean coal refers to scrubbing pollutants and possibly CO2 from emissions. It isn't necessarily bullshit.

It can refer to: "reduce oxides of nitrogen (NOX) and sulfur dioxide (SO2) emission" This was a boondoggle near my hometown: sttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healy_Clean_Coal_Project Sheetrock/gypsum board is another byproduct: https://www.buildinggreen.com/primer/synthetic-gypsum There was a wave of flue gas gypsum emitting acidic gasses around 2009, eating through copper plumbing and wiring. This was in Florida. CO2…

>There was a wave of flue gas gypsum emitting acidic gasses around 2009, eating through copper plumbing and wiring. This was in Florida.

sounds like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_drywall rather than clean coal

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#64
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good point -- why aren't mining companies buying PAPRs for their workers? PAPRs are designed for difficult conditions like hot and damp, and at least in my experience, the constant flow of air over your face cools you down and is a lot more comfortable than a traditional respirator. Mining is a relatively well paid profession. Yes, PAPRs are expensive ($1,500), and depending on how often they need to be chan…

PAPRs also suck to wear. I agree it makes sense to force the issue given the obvious benefit of not being unable to breath at 40, but a short sighted view along with tough guy attitude can go against common sense without robust regulation. I had to wear those in nuclear environments and they limit vision significantly and beep constantly if you bend over and choke the hose at all.

> I had to wear those in nuclear environments and they limit vision significantly and beep constantly if you bend over and choke the hose at all.

These current-day issues and other considerations like them appear, at least to my layman's eye, to be solvable problems.

Now, whether or not they are morally/economically feasible, trivial vs. non-trivial to introduce solutions for, and if they align with both the users' and the companies' producing the units needs are the major challenges.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no thermodynamically possible way to generate power from burning coal while also removing the primary product of the reaction from the effluent. Clean coal is, necessarily, 100% bullshit.

That's not true at all. You can, for example, sequester it by injecting it into the earth.

By default you would then end up with less energy than you started with

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#66
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to “charge” people in any other resource, and they’ll just convert the extra profits they make from the operation into that currency and then pay you in it. For example: stores that require people to wait in line to get a limited-availability thing on a first-come-first-served basis. Rich people just pay someone to wait in line for them. Entrepreneurs serve these rich people by putting a bunch of people in the li…

There is an incredible number of norms you and most everybody else adheres to every single day. Some of them even obviously ridiculous and without any objective basis, like "don't wear white socks and sandals". Nobody charges you money, not even if you ignore such norms. And yet you comply - and the corset of cultural norms is far tighter than you realize (unless you start thinking about it, but even then it's hard t…

Humans care about norms. Corporations as aggregate entities just care about money. You can influence the people in a corporation with norms, but that doesn’t mean that you can influence the corporation itself with norms.

Corporate boards are elected by their shareholders specifically to optimize for profitability above and beyond any other criteria. (Which is hard work! That’s why “corporate board-member” is a paid gig—it requires hard mental self-trickery to get into that mindset, plus a lot of cognitive dissonance to stay in that mindset, and those both take a lot out of you, emotionally.)

A good example of this: recycling. Social norms have caused people within corporations to favour recycling, and so, for example, office managers will implement recycling and waste-reduction programs, where employees must sort their waste into bins, etc.

But this is entirely uncoupled from whether the corporation itself will implement recycling on an industrial scale. Most of the corporations that have recycling bins in their hallways, don’t have any recycling or waste-reduction programs going for their products or services, or for the manufacturing and logistics pipelines serving them. If norms were enough to influence corporations to do so, they’d have long done so; society has been pushing corporations to care about the environment, in every way we can think of, since the 1970s.

But look at it from the corporation’s perspective: a few bins for the office, and a contract with a recycling company to empty them, just makes the “offices” line-item cost a tiny bit more. It’s an eensy-weensy operational expense. But doing something like Apple does, where they design their phones to not include non-recyclable materials, and accept them back for trade-in specifically to recycle the components? That’s something that requires large capital expenditures to implement, and so that’s something you have to convince your shareholders is worth doing.

And, if you’re a public company, your shareholders probably aren’t humans themselves, but rather other corporations like mutual-fund management houses. And those companies are operating under the principle that their goal is to make their fund participants high returns—not to invest in ways that those fund participants would prefer, or even find ethical.

The social more is never going to take effect, because (public) corporations have boards of people who are paid to only think about money, and shareholders who are also mostly corporations with boards paid to think solely of the profitability of their investments. Never do human preferences or human norms enter into the board’s equation for “what should the corporation do, from a top-down perspective.” Public corporations are about as able to be influenced by human norms as an alien or an AI. (They can be influenced if their workers form a union and then that union strikes to express its disagreement with the corporation over some social norm. But that’s less about the corporation “understanding” or “appreciating” the norm, and more about how an organism under threat will do things it doesn’t want to do to appease a predator.)

---

Tangent: The only reason Apple “gets away with” having an industrial recycling program, is that they’ve made it into a feature of their product, part of its marketing, in a way that appeals to their particular user-base (i.e. upper-middle-class people who usually have some guilt over how their purchasing affects the environment.) They used this “increased appeal to our customer-base -> increased sales” argument to convince those corporate share-holders to okay the program.

That situation, though, is pretty unique. Most companies in the world aren’t selling expensive, “trendy” items, with the kind of customer-base that “we implemented a recycling program for our product” or “we reduced our factories’ emissions” would appeal to. And even the ones that are, aren’t necessarily selling the majority of units into cultures with norms like our own; Chinese manufacturers, for example, might be able to establish a recycling program for goods sold abroad, but they likely won’t get much uptake for a recycling program for goods sold domestically in China. If that’s where their board and their shareholders reside, then that recycling program (and associated CapEx) is just not gonna happen.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#67
post #63
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can refer to: "reduce oxides of nitrogen (NOX) and sulfur dioxide (SO2) emission" This was a boondoggle near my hometown: sttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healy_Clean_Coal_Project Sheetrock/gypsum board is another byproduct: https://www.buildinggreen.com/primer/synthetic-gypsum There was a wave of flue gas gypsum emitting acidic gasses around 2009, eating through copper plumbing and wiring. This was in Florida. CO2…

>There was a wave of flue gas gypsum emitting acidic gasses around 2009, eating through copper plumbing and wiring. This was in Florida. sounds like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_drywall rather than clean coal

My point was that clean coal can mean a lot of things and sometimes making one part of a product lifecycle "green" just passes the problem down the supply chain.

In this case, scrubbing the flue gasses and recycling the coal ash resulted in toxic drywall. This isn't to say all drywall is toxic but it illustrates one illusion of something being clean or green.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely it's cheaper to provide this kind of protection (I assumed it would be OSHA-mandated honestly) than it is to pay for the healthcare and/or lawsuits that follow? I admittedly haven't read the article yet, but it's surprising to me that black lung / industrial air quality isn't something that OSHA (or similar) is tasked with ensuring ample worker protections for.

>In the past 30 years, the biggest coal seams were mined out in Appalachia, leaving thinner seams coursing through sandstone. ... >And because there's no coal, it is considered development mining or construction. So sampling the air for toxic dust is not required, even though it is the most dangerous dust. Former MSHA officials told us some inspectors did it, but most did not. Hopefully the lawsuits cost them. Howeve…

In NZ employers with higher risk pay more to the medical pool. Accidents outside work are paid for from common pool. Chronic diseases from unhealthy lifestyle (or bad luck) are not compensated.

I can't think of a better system.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of a single instance, from the last 200 years, where money alone has achieved the appropriate constraint of a process, product or industry. All the significant milestones in health and safety have been from hard won regulation and money - not just taxation, but penalties and fines. Usually accompanied by enormous effort and spending from industry to lie, cheat and avoid said regulation being enacted, or…

I had hoped I included enough of a "disclaimer" referencing the pitfalls to avoid this comment. Alas.

Plenty of disclaimers I agree with, but I still dispute that reducing anything to a single, monetary measure is a sensible thing to do. The pitfalls are as clear as with other overly simplistic measures it leads to gaming that measure at the expense of everything else. Or encourages belief that some of those externalities are unimportant as they are not in that headline £££ figure.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#70
post #17

Related problem in public health monitoring of mines in Queensland Australia: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-29/black-lung-report-cat... Interestingly, the public health and epidemiologists they used for a lot of this (the workers I mean) appear to be American.

We've seen these kind of lung problems crop up with many mining companies in Southeast Asia and Africa as well. Currently working on chest X-ray + AI solutions to provide fast, affordable screening since the biggest factors seems to be cost and slow turnaround time for radiologists. Feel free to test out our AI algorithms below:

https://app.semantic.md/classify/cxr

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