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An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

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Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#41

Post by gumby »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #35
mindslight wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, the entire point of a simple metric (money) is so that complex processes don't have to be understood top-down to be managed. From first principles, the more technologically complex a society gets, the more you would expect its priorities to be weighed with money. Now please, don't take this as an endorsement that we should let externalities go unchecked, or even that governance should shirk basic understanding o…

I can't think of a single instance, from the last 200 years, where money alone has achieved the appropriate constraint of a process, product or industry. All the significant milestones in health and safety have been from hard won regulation and money - not just taxation, but penalties and fines. Usually accompanied by enormous effort and spending from industry to lie, cheat and avoid said regulation being enacted, or…

> I can't think of a single instance, from the last 200 years, where money alone has achieved the appropriate constraint of a process, product or industry.

Money upset the mobile phone business which was a lazy cartel controlled by carriers, who functioned as monopsony customers of phone manufacturers. Europe's market was more dynamic than the the US and Japan due to regulation but still the phones weren't amazing. Then about a decade ago Apple blew up not just the design of phones but more importantly IMHO the relationships between the end users, manufacturers, and the carriers.

I cite this as a proof that it can happen but in general I think regulation to manage externalities is underused due to ideology. Yet as a businessperson I don't consider regulation inherently evil -- in fact, for example, a safety reg which applies to everyone doesn't disadvantage any one company.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#42

Post by justin66 »

parshimers wrote: post #13
adanto6840 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely it's cheaper to provide this kind of protection (I assumed it would be OSHA-mandated honestly) than it is to pay for the healthcare and/or lawsuits that follow? I admittedly haven't read the article yet, but it's surprising to me that black lung / industrial air quality isn't something that OSHA (or similar) is tasked with ensuring ample worker protections for.

>In the past 30 years, the biggest coal seams were mined out in Appalachia, leaving thinner seams coursing through sandstone. ... >And because there's no coal, it is considered development mining or construction. So sampling the air for toxic dust is not required, even though it is the most dangerous dust. Former MSHA officials told us some inspectors did it, but most did not. Hopefully the lawsuits cost them. Howeve…

However the folks that make these decisions never see the consequences; they've taken their bonuses and gone by now.

It's worse than that. There might not be a company left when these guys start needing health care in a big way. (Or the mine's environmental impact is starting to be felt, or whatever)

That's normal: a mine can be structured as a dividend paying company (with one big asset) that gradually becomes less and less valuable until it's worthless at the end. If the company goes bankrupt at that point, no big deal, it's already paid what it was meant to pay for its investors. And yes, management.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#43

Post by nradov »

matte_black wrote: post #40
nradov wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respirators are uncomfortable to wear. I know that might seem like silly reason considering the long term health consequences, but in industrial settings it's quite common for workers to ignore or disable any safety equipment that gets in their way.

Not really sure what the solution is then. And it's easy to see why companies wouldn't bothering doing much about it.

The solution, as other companies have found, is for management and unions to work together to make safety a core part of the corporate culture.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#44

Post by fromthestart »

stdplaceholder wrote: post #38
fromthestart wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clean coal refers to scrubbing pollutants and possibly CO2 from emissions. It isn't necessarily bullshit.

There is no thermodynamically possible way to generate power from burning coal while also removing the primary product of the reaction from the effluent. Clean coal is, necessarily, 100% bullshit.

That's not true at all. You can, for example, sequester it by injecting it into the earth.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#45

Post by avs733 »

stdplaceholder wrote: post #38
fromthestart wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clean coal refers to scrubbing pollutants and possibly CO2 from emissions. It isn't necessarily bullshit.

There is no thermodynamically possible way to generate power from burning coal while also removing the primary product of the reaction from the effluent. Clean coal is, necessarily, 100% bullshit.

>Clean coal is, necessarily, 100% bullshit

Necessarily = chemically and thermodynamically

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#46

Post by avs733 »

syntaxing wrote: post #37

It's disgusting how coal mine owners doesn't even want to admit that it's a problem. It's only a "potential" problem and the science isn't conclusive. What a load of shit. Silicosis is a well studied health hazard. What do you expect when you mine the earth and silica is everywhere in the ground?

Humans, all humans, are prideful. What you are talking about is admitting that the job they have been doing for years and is their best hope of a decent standard of living is literally killing them. That the red meat beliefs they are fed about the evils of government regulation built on the threats of a loss of that income.

On top of that you pile evidence about one thing. Sure it's true but this isn't about a single fact or outcome or causality, it's about conceptual change[0] which is about changing one or more of the schema that frame how we see the world. That is significantly harder and a lot of studies show that evidence contrary to a belief not only is ineffective at creating it, it can reinforce it.

long story short...the attitudes and reactions have very little to do with the chain of evidence related to disease.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_change

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#47

Post by avs733 »

tCfD wrote: post #31
KirinDave wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've long had a rule in my life: "When someone can only accept a conversation or submit to an idea if it is framed in ways that specifically impact them, then they're most likely not in possession of any idea or perspective worth sharing in the first place." If you're angry that a publication addresses a human problem on a human level because, it seems, you're upset about what fractional cents of cost it would have a…

The misguided belief that "if it can't be counted, it doesn't count" lies at the heart of all structural social conflicts. When complex reality is overcompressed into digestible, uniform units of account, whatever values fall outside the perception model is discounted to zero and lost.

I see the same property at the heart of the theory of disruption.

Part of me thinks a safety first, collectively owned and organized coal mine would be a hell of a fun thing to try and create.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#48

Post by r00fus »

gumby wrote: post #41
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of a single instance, from the last 200 years, where money alone has achieved the appropriate constraint of a process, product or industry. All the significant milestones in health and safety have been from hard won regulation and money - not just taxation, but penalties and fines. Usually accompanied by enormous effort and spending from industry to lie, cheat and avoid said regulation being enacted, or…

> I can't think of a single instance, from the last 200 years, where money alone has achieved the appropriate constraint of a process, product or industry. Money upset the mobile phone business which was a lazy cartel controlled by carriers, who functioned as monopsony customers of phone manufacturers. Europe's market was more dynamic than the the US and Japan due to regulation but still the phones weren't amazing. T…

How did money upset it without tech disruption?

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#49

Post by uxp100 »

cc439 wrote: post #33
nradov wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respirators are uncomfortable to wear. I know that might seem like silly reason considering the long term health consequences, but in industrial settings it's quite common for workers to ignore or disable any safety equipment that gets in their way.

You've just hit the nail on the head. PPE is an annoyance, especially in the form of devices that make critical bodily functions (like breathing and dissipating heat) difficult. Regulate all you want, workers will voluntarily remove the PPE often enough to incur respiratory damage just like they do with hearing protection in areas that aren't immediately deafeningly loud.

I listened to this on NPR earlier, didn't reread it, so I don't know if this isn't present in the piece, or other posters just didn't read. Miners said that the respirators got clogged quickly, and it would feel like someone had their hands over your mouth. And the respirators that are recommended and provided protect you from coal dust, but not what causes this disease, silica dust.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#50

Post by luckydata »

munk-a wrote: post #10
munchbunny wrote: post #6

I think it's a story we're all quite familiar with: in the absence of someone keeping an industry honest, the industry tends to develop honesty problems, because cutting corners makes the decision-makers more money, and the externalities are just that: externalities.

I think in the modern political stage we've forgotten that regulations on industry is not a market distortion but a market correction (when done correctly). Regulations exist to incorporate the costs of externalities into the cost of doing business. This sort of a market correction only receives criticism on an inter-industry level (and possibly with regards to imports if the cost is only applied domestically) becaus…

Nobody has forgotten anything, it was a carefully orchestrated effort by people that understand the consecuences perfectly well and doesn't care. Everything else is propaganda carefully created to make dumbasses scream "job killing regulations" without understanding that regulation is good for them.
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