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Why we should care about the Nate Silver vs. Nassim Taleb Twitter war

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Re: Why we should care about the Nate Silver vs. Nassim Taleb Twitter war

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. The more I read the more I got embarrassed for the author, mainly because his points were so ridiculously flimsy. I thought this was one of the worst: > Because FiveThirtyEight only predicts probabilities, they do not ever take an absolute stand on an outcome: No ‘skin in the game’ as Taleb would say. This is not, however, something their readers follow suit on. In the public eye, they (FiveThirtyEight) are j…

> basking in self-proclaimed genius when luck happened to run in his favor. I have read read Black Swan and I think Taleb's central thesis is there are valid epistimic gaps in every model, and that suggest there is at least one family of hedge strategies where the goal is to think as creatively as possible about what we don't know, but what could be, so as to reframe that lack of knowledge as a plan to go tromping ar…

This is a smart observation. There has been some theoretical work on the intersection of game theory and uncertainty quantification [1]. One part of it is a mathematical take on what you described - you have a system which is not pricing risk correctly, due over-confidence in model predictions. If so, there should be money to be made in placing bets on that system.

[1] https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/pdf/10.2514/6.2017-1092

Re: Why we should care about the Nate Silver vs. Nassim Taleb Twitter war

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peripherally, I like using nuclear reactor design analogies for Aleatory vs. Epistemic. Aleatory is the inherent randomness of a system. You can characterize it but it's often hard to reduce. For example, how much boron impurities are mixed into your steel at the time of manufacture. Epistemic is things that are knowable but you don't know with much certainty (because it's hard to measure), like the probability that…

“Known unknowns” vs “unknown unknowns”. Despite the sniggering at the time, those terms are quite smart.

If with ”sniggering at the time” you refer to Donald Rumsfield’s use of the terms, it was his use of ”unknown known” that was bemusing

Re: Why we should care about the Nate Silver vs. Nassim Taleb Twitter war

#173
post #25

This is an intellectually confused post. It is so unclear and muddled that only a charitable reader would suppose the author understands the mathematical and modeling issues here. I’m surprised the author published it in this form - you don’t want to jump into a controversy like this with such an unclear discussion. As just one example, the whole digression on a “decision boundary” is conceptually mistaken. Once you…

Unlikely. Taleb seems to like how his argument has been summarised. The crux of the issue taleb has with silver is showing probabilities without making a decision/declaration is cowardly. When asked about making a prediction he says one thing then follows it up with a “ but don’t be surprised if it could be completely random.” And that’s the point - the fact he covers his ass is the problem. Election forecasting is h…

Absolutely disagree. People have a tendency to think forecasting is simply making a binary prediction: something will happen or it won't. That simply is not the case. It's more than that. It's quantifying uncertainty. In actuality, reducing a prediction to a simple "X will happen/won't happen" statement throws away information. I can predict the sun will rise tomorrow, and can also predict that the Denver Nuggets will beat the Dallas Mavericks tonight, but the probabilities associated with those predictions are vastly different.

The quandary that FiveThirtyEight and Silver are in is that the general public is stupendously bad with probabilities. Prior to the the 2016 election, Silver was personally being attacked, in some cases by major media organizations like the Huffington Post, and accused of tipping the scales towards Trump (for some inexplicable reason), since their models were giving him approximately a 1 in 4 chance of winning. Then, in the months following the election, the narrative somehow switched, and the fact that Trump won despite only being given a 1 in 4 chance by FiveThirtyEight meant that Silver was now a hack and the model was wrong.

So now, fast forward to this year's election, Silver is doing his best to drill into people's minds that, yes, their model showed a Democratic win in the house as the most likely outcome, but that absolutely doesn't not mean their model says it is an absolute certainty, or that other outcomes would be unusual. It isn't "covering his ass", its educating the public on how probabilistic statements work.

Re: Why we should care about the Nate Silver vs. Nassim Taleb Twitter war

#174
I've been following this spat since it reignited several weeks ago, but also since Taleb first attacked Nate on Twitter back before the 2016 elections, and it has been the final nail in the coffin as to any supposed credibility Taleb commands.

The quandary that FiveThirtyEight and Silver are in is that the general public is stupendously bad with probabilities. Prior to the the 2016 election, Silver was personally being attacked, in some cases by major media organizations like the Huffington Post, and accused of tipping the scales towards Trump (for some inexplicable reason), since their models were giving him approximately a 1 in 4 chance of winning, since everyone knew it was a certainty Clinton would win. Then, in the months following the election, the narrative somehow switched, and the fact that Trump won despite only being given a 1 in 4 chance by FiveThirtyEight meant that Silver was now a hack and the model was wrong. This same criticism has been leveled by many right-wing media personalities, who had been trotting out Silver's 2016 predictions leading up to the election, as well as by the New York Times, whose own models were giving Clinton nearly a 90% chance of victory.

So now, fast forward to this year's election, Silver is doing his best to drill into people's minds that, yes, their model showed a Democratic win in the house as the most likely outcome, but that absolutely doesn't not mean their model says it is an absolute certainty, or that other outcomes would be unusual. It isn't covering his ass, its educating the public on how probabilistic statements work.

This is something Taleb should know. But Taleb has proven himself to be a hack and an intellectual parasite. He hasn't actually produced any ideas worth discussing since "Fooled By Randomness" which was nearly 20 years ago. Basically all of his works since then have been rehashing the same idea, or, as with Skin in the Game, pseudo-intellectual ramblings containing little to no interesting ideas, and what ideas do exist have been rehashed a million times by others.

Since then, he has taken to making ad-hominem attacks and nonsensical critiques on others in the public view, often on Twitter. I hate bringing up Trump, as it happens far too often in discussions these days, but some of his methods of "debate" are strikingly similar: strange monikers ("klueless Nate"), schizophrenic jumps between topics/arguments, often indecipherable language, and a ridiculous volume of output. All of this combines to mask the fact that most of the time, he isn't actually saying anything, or at least anything sensible, but by shouting loud enough, long enough, and purposefully making his point difficult to identify, it almost becomes impossible to argue with him, and a non-insignificant number of people will assume he is right.

Interestingly, I've also found many of his supporters to be similar to some of Trump's or other figures such as Musk. There is a cult of personality built up there where they have established the person as a visionary first, and therefore anything and everything they do or say is correct. Many of them parrot back the same, shallow catchphrases of his, that rarely contain anything insightful but are general enough that they can be thrown out in any situation: critics or dissidents are "Intellectual yet Idiots" or don't have "Skin in the Game". Note that the arguments of these critics or dissidents are almost never addressed.

Unfortunately, the spat between Taleb and Silver (which actually started back prior to the 2016 elections), is exhibit A in why Taleb is an intellectual charlatan, and shouldn't be given the time of day. Silver isn't some perfect person either, but in general he has been a reliable voice in the realms of political prediction, fairly forthcoming on shortfalls, and his most damning criticisms all seem to be built upon critical failures in the understanding of probability, or a willful misrepresentation of his results.

Re: Why we should care about the Nate Silver vs. Nassim Taleb Twitter war

#175
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taleb is just mixing up the nowcast and the forecast, even after being corrected many times.

I think he would say that the "nowcast" is so useless and deceptive to be malpractice, since everyone will interpret it as a forecast, and even if they didn't it's not in any way useful. Which I agree with (unsurprising since I've semi-invented it as an opinion for another person).

It's only useless and deceptive if you willfully do absolutely nothing to understand what it is, or how it differs from the other models 538 has, which apparently is the case for Taleb.

Re: Why we should care about the Nate Silver vs. Nassim Taleb Twitter war

#176
post #45

The whole 2016 situation feels like many people are borderlining on delusion, Nate included. The Comey thing certainly helped Trump, but even the day of the election 538 was still forecasting a massive win for Hilary. How can the probabilities be that wrong? Because the polls were wrong. Or, at least, incomplete. It doesn't matter how good your algorithms are if the data isn't there. And 2016 proved that 538, and rea…

>Figuring out the most likely winner of a game of baseball is a little harder; there's a whole movie about a guy who was basically doing that in 2002.

Nate was literally one of the core people working on Sabermetrics around the time that Moneyball was written.

Re: Why we should care about the Nate Silver vs. Nassim Taleb Twitter war

#177
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Saying "this is not something their readers follow suit on" - only if you're a reader who doesn't understand probability." Unfortunately that is the more common case, and I agree on the author on that that most people take a binary stance on polls. It should not be the case for regular readers of a website whose main topic is statistical analysis, although I imagine that just before a major election they would see a…

Fine, but Silver goes to extreme ends in my opinion to explain what a probability means. During the 2016 presidential election he was emphasizing "Hey, it's less likely than the alternative, but there is a real possibility Trump will win. There is a very plausible path for him to wrap up the electoral votes." And afterwards, I think the results showed how accurate Silver was - he gave a much higher probability to Tru…

I was following the website frequently at the time and I fully agree.

Bur I was just commenting that that the author is spot-on at least in that many readers do not take these explanations into account and they see just 28.6% of winning chance and they automatically convert it to 0% in their mind.

And the explanation is that they don't understand math and probability (or don't want to), whether the author likes it or not.

Re: Why we should care about the Nate Silver vs. Nassim Taleb Twitter war

#178
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I normally like Taleb's insights but it was obvious when following this that he (and Dinesh D'Souza) were ridiculously misconstruing Nate Silver's comment. Two outcomes being "extremely possible" in no way means they have a 50/50 chance of happening. It merely means that neither outcome has a low enough chance that you should assume it won't happen.

As the blog post rightly said, they present 538 present the forecast in a way that they are never wrong. I can see the point. I also fond the comparison of NFL vs. Senate forecasts meaningful. This kind of "forecasting" seems to be the current version of crystal balling and astrology. They (models) don't really know anything (no causation, and definitely nothing close to an actual model of the real world like in phys…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoring_rule#Proper_scoring_ru...

Re: Why we should care about the Nate Silver vs. Nassim Taleb Twitter war

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlikely. Taleb seems to like how his argument has been summarised. The crux of the issue taleb has with silver is showing probabilities without making a decision/declaration is cowardly. When asked about making a prediction he says one thing then follows it up with a “ but don’t be surprised if it could be completely random.” And that’s the point - the fact he covers his ass is the problem. Election forecasting is h…

If asked about the outcome of some uncertain future event (say, an election or some sports game), saying "team A has a 20% chance of winning" is making a prediction. Making a decision/declaration in such a case where the outcome isn't (yet) certain does not mean "being held accountable", it means that you're either stupid, or a liar, or a stupid liar. If you want to call the results of a game before it's certain, the…

This is not what the disagreement is about. It’s got nothing to do with uncertainty in the predictions and the debate is not about saying for certain what is going to happen. We know that distributions have means and variances so one can’t say what WILL happen. The point taleb is making is that Nate presents likelihoods and then throws his hands up and says whoa there I’m not saying what is going to happen just look at these likelihoods and draw your own conclusions. When the public naively looks at them and it looks as if it was right he gets praise for being a predictive genius and when the less likely outcome occurs he covers his arse with “well it was part of the 10% chance so I’m still right”. one is approaching stats from a real world perspective of there being consequences for actions and the other wants the praise that comes with being seen as a predictive so and so but never be accountable for his predictions. Put it another way: Nate’s “predictions” are only worth how much money/reputation he stakes on them. So far that’s zero by his own admission

Re: Why we should care about the Nate Silver vs. Nassim Taleb Twitter war

#180
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the main reason he was attacked by Taleb was this misuse of language, which can be misinterpreted as meaning a 50-50 chance. Like others have said, he could have said "far from impossible" or "entirely possible" to convey that he meant the estimate had a large variance. Then again, I think Taleb should have realized this and not attacked him for simply failing to convey variance correctly. This seems like a…

Apparently there's people who have hard feelings in this argument too. I could understand people downvoting my comment (it may be interpreted as harsh even if that wasn't my intention) but... yours? Something weird is at play here.

Maybe it's just people being emotionally invested in Nate Silver being right (because they defended him publicly before for example), so they interpret any criticism of Nate Silver as a personal attack.
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