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Opt Out of a Body Scan? Then Brace Yourself

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Re: Opt Out of a Body Scan? Then Brace Yourself

#91

Post by jules »

roc wrote: post #83
jules wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For whom on HN are pat downs intimidating and/or humiliating? I personally don't mind it at all, but I can understand that they could be a problem for somebody. I'm much more worried about CCTV's everywhere, cell phone tracking, internet usage tracking, tracking cars with cameras on highways that read number plates, etc. All these tools are extremely well suited for keeping a dictator in place. I'm afraid that if we…

So you haven't seen or had the new pat-downs then? They're tantamount to a strip search. They lift, they separate. The choice for airline passengers in the US is now: be photographed nude, or have the TSA jostle your luggage. Reasonableness has been left at the door. Raising data tracking concerns is a false dichotomy; I can hate and distrust the expansion of both.

You're right I've only experienced European pat downs so far. However, I doubt that any kind of pat down would bother me much except if it takes an unreasonable amount of time. Somehow they nearly always select me randomly. I make sure that I'm the one enjoying the pat down the most by smiling and winking at the officer when I get selected.

Agreed that the photographing and pat downs are unreasonable. One time I got selected for a pat down because the metal detector went off of my belt. They checked me thoroughly, but they didn't even bother to open my bag even though it contained a cooking set in a 30x30x30cm metal container...I could have put three guns and a kg TNT in there and they wouldn't have noticed it on their screen.

Re: Opt Out of a Body Scan? Then Brace Yourself

#92

Post by alanh »

rdtsc wrote: post #69
StavrosK wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Oh yes... A bit to the left, that's it!"

But I wonder if some TSA employee who doesn't like can just "randomly" pick you for additional questioning and delay you just enough to miss your flight then let you go. Would they just retaliate against you just for making a fuss?

If you're thinking along those lines, they already won.

Re: Opt Out of a Body Scan? Then Brace Yourself

#93

Post by jasongullickson »

pchristensen wrote: post #52
jasongullickson wrote: post #43

To me this is just another reason (of many) that travelers should consider general aviation (charter, etc.) as an alternative to commercial airline travel. The straight financial cost may be higher but avoiding all of this sort of nonsense has its rewards, and remember that most GA operators are locally-owned smallish businesses that appreciate your support and treat their passengers like customers and not like priso…

I echo tocomment - for someone who has only ever flown commercial, how would one go about finding and hiring a GA operator? What's kind of premium would you expect pay for a regional (eg Chicago to Detroit) flight or a longer flight (eg Chicago to LA)?

I'm actually pursuing my private pilot's license so my route would be a little different than most, but here in Wisconsin we have Wisconsin Aviation which operates out of several airports and provides everything from aircraft rental for pilots to full charter services:

http://www.wisconsinaviation.com/

Re: Opt Out of a Body Scan? Then Brace Yourself

#94

Post by wrs »

verdant wrote: post #75

If enough would choose opt out (despite the obvious intimidation tactics), then the entire process would become so inefficient that an easy, efficient alternate would be provided (or the scanners removed altogether). It would likely take a majority of people opting out though.

More likely, they will just eliminate the option to opt out.

Re: Opt Out of a Body Scan? Then Brace Yourself

#96

Post by jnchapel »

jules wrote: post #42
roc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole invasive pat-down is just a way to intimidate and humiliate people away from that choice. This is the last straw for me, personally. I'll just be vacationing closer to home now or working old-school road trips into my plans. Maybe if the outraged take a few less flights a year, the vacation, airline and union lobbies will take up the cause.

For whom on HN are pat downs intimidating and/or humiliating? I personally don't mind it at all, but I can understand that they could be a problem for somebody. I'm much more worried about CCTV's everywhere, cell phone tracking, internet usage tracking, tracking cars with cameras on highways that read number plates, etc. All these tools are extremely well suited for keeping a dictator in place. I'm afraid that if we…

I fly out of Boston, which has the machines, so opting out has become part of travel process for me. TSA agents were more aggressive with my last trip out (Sunday, October 31), not only with loudly announcing several times that they had an opt-out, but also in the pat down, which included pulling the clothes from my body and looking between the cloth and underthings. ("I have to clear your waistband," is how the TSA agent explained it.)

So, it's humiliating. But I'm not going to stop opting out. The difference between the pat down and the machine for me is this -- the pat down happens in the moment, between two people. There's no record. It exists only in the time it takes. It can't be stored, it can't be transmitted, it can't be tied to a flight record or anything else at some future date. It forces TSA to confront what they're doing, and it's one small way I can say at the airport, I am human, I'm not an abstraction. I have rights, respect them.

Re: Opt Out of a Body Scan? Then Brace Yourself

#97

Post by jamii »

roc wrote: post #86
jamii wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to keep making a point of this, but it has happened in the past and the solution wasn't pretty. Wikipedia says: The Troubles' impact on the ordinary people of Northern Ireland produced such psychological trauma that the city of Belfast had been compared to London during the Blitz. [104] The stress resulting from bomb attacks, street disturbances, security checkpoints, and the constant military presence had the…

The IRA was a completely different case. They weren't asking agents to directly murder random individuals or property. They had the tacit support of (or were at least politely ignored by) much of the surrounding populace and social institutions. They didn't stick out in a crowd. They were born and raised there, had history, jobs, families. Al Qaeda enjoys none of those advantages for planning attacks in the US. Until…

Besides the fact that most of the Al Qaeda members involved in the London bombings were British citizens, if you stand out then the IRA style attacks are easier to perform. You don't have to get through airport security or pass a background check. You just go shopping. Thousands of immigrants do it without being stopped by the police.

> They weren't asking agents to directly murder random individuals or property.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles

"In 1972, the Provisional IRA killed approximately 100 soldiers, wounded 500 more and carried out approximately 1,300 bombings,[66] mostly against commercial targets which they considered "the artificial economy".[67][68] The bombing campaign killed many civilians, notably on Bloody Friday on 21 July, when 22 bombs were set off in the centre of Belfast killing seven civilians and two soldiers. "

But otherwise I agree. The level of competence of Al Qaeda recruits is laughable in comparison to PIRA. Which is exactly my point - we've survived far worse, why are we giving up so much of what we stand for for protection from such incompetent terrorists?

Re: Opt Out of a Body Scan? Then Brace Yourself

#98

Post by jamii »

tomjen3 wrote: post #88
jamii wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Britain didn't react any more sensibly though. We had arguably even more erosion of civil liberties as a result eg http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/8...

Yaeh - but to a 7th grader that wasn't apparent 2 days later. I still hope that with enough tea and scones one can get some sensibility back into that country.

Stupid lawmaking aside, I was really proud the day after the London bombings to see so many people commuting to work regardless. There were a fair few white faces and it was deathly silent but the place was still packed. You can blow up our trains and murder our citizens but life goes on.

Re: Opt Out of a Body Scan? Then Brace Yourself

#99

Post by tomjen3 »

jamii wrote: post #98
tomjen3 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yaeh - but to a 7th grader that wasn't apparent 2 days later. I still hope that with enough tea and scones one can get some sensibility back into that country.

Stupid lawmaking aside, I was really proud the day after the London bombings to see so many people commuting to work regardless. There were a fair few white faces and it was deathly silent but the place was still packed. You can blow up our trains and murder our citizens but life goes on.

Thats great to hear - I really hate the politicians for what they have done to the UK.

Re: Opt Out of a Body Scan? Then Brace Yourself

#100

Post by asmithmd1 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #30
mcantelon wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forest fires seem, to me, the low hanging fruit. Lots of economic damage for little effort so the fact they're not being done make me doubt the omnipresence of Emmanuel Goldstein.

I'm surprised Al Qaeda hasn't used the DC snipers as a model.

This amazes me also. Imagine 6 or 8 teams of two shooting one person at random every other day or so in our largest metro areas. It would paralyze the country.

And TSA would start swiping your hands at the airport to see if you had recently fired a gun.

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