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German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

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Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#111

Post by HumanDrivenDev »

jstanley wrote: post #96
jamiegreen wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this world, how would public officials plan for the number of school places needed in 2 years, or the number of hospital beds? It's a nice idea, but it seems impractical. The sentiment that we are "all free people" may sound nice but is unfortunately a meaningless platitude bearing little resemblance to the real world. Sorry if that sounds unduly harsh

The same way town officials currently plan for the number of school places needed in their town in 2 years. I already drew a parallel between towns and countries. Remember, we're all free to visit or even move to a different town right now , and yet we don't have chaos.

The same way town officials currently plan for the number of school places needed in their town in 2 years.

With increased revenue from where, exactly?

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#112

Post by incompatible »

gammateam wrote: post #27
dividuum wrote: post #12

Odd borders are funny. Here's two other examples: The utter chaos in Baarle. They even have nested enclaves. So area of Netherlands surrounded by Belgium surrounded by Netherlands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Nassau https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/51.4402/4.9316 Between Germany and Switzerland, there's the German exclave Büsingen am Hochrhein. They have odd tax rules as Swiss VAT is applied. https://en…

The german entry for Büsingen is MUCH more detailed https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Büsingen_am_Hochrhein This really frustrates me about Wikipedia because its like a totally parallel site and experience thats just right there and can even have conflicting information. Not helping the world as much as we think, but its so close to being able to.

Sometimes the source documents only exist in one language, and speakers of that language are more likely to be interested in the topic.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#113

Post by eesmith »

jstanley wrote: post #70
jamiegreen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it paranoia, or just a sensible way for states to implement some semblance of control over their own border when a EU wide strategy seems out of reach?

It is no more "sensible" for a state to be exercising control of its border than it is for a town to be exercising control over its border. We're all free people in the world, and we should be able to move around it freely. There should be no borders at all.

Towns can and have exercised control over their borders. Even in the US. Here's an example from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordon_sanitaire :

> The 1918 flu pandemic spread so rapidly that, in general, there was no time to implement cordons sanitaires. However, to prevent an introduction of the infection, residents of Gunnison, Colorado isolated themselves from the surrounding area for two months at the end of 1918. All highways were barricaded near the county lines. Train conductors warned all passengers that if they stepped outside of the train in Gunnison, they would be arrested and quarantined for five days. As a result of this protective sequestration, no one died of influenza in Gunnison during the epidemic.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#114

Post by incompatible »

gammateam wrote: post #27
dividuum wrote: post #12

Odd borders are funny. Here's two other examples: The utter chaos in Baarle. They even have nested enclaves. So area of Netherlands surrounded by Belgium surrounded by Netherlands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Nassau https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/51.4402/4.9316 Between Germany and Switzerland, there's the German exclave Büsingen am Hochrhein. They have odd tax rules as Swiss VAT is applied. https://en…

The german entry for Büsingen is MUCH more detailed https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Büsingen_am_Hochrhein This really frustrates me about Wikipedia because its like a totally parallel site and experience thats just right there and can even have conflicting information. Not helping the world as much as we think, but its so close to being able to.

I've occasionally wanted to translate some material from another Wikipedia, in a language I can read, into English. But the referencing in that Wikipedia is often quite bad, so I wouldn't be able to reference it properly in the English Wikipedia. Finding and interpreting good sources then starts to look like a major research project.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#115

Post by jstanley »

HumanDrivenDev wrote: post #103
jstanley wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my world there would be no such thing as an "illegal" migrant. And, the distinction would be between public places and private places. Anybody is free to exist in any public place with no permission required (just like you are already allowed to do once you're in the country). It would all be exactly the same as it is now, except there are no checks at the border, and no visa requirements.

Do you seriously think the quality of life wouldn't deteriorate rapidly if this was the case? Or is that not your concern? Or would it not effect your area, so you don't care? I think it's utopian to believe that this would lead to anything but slums and shanty towns. People with no wealth will all flock to areas with wealth, which won't have the infrastructure to support them. They'd camp out wherever they could wit…

It's certainly not ethically sound to lock out people from poor countries just because you don't want them to be poor nearby.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#116

Post by adrianratnapala »

randallsquared wrote: post #35
OscarCunningham wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in the U.S. have forgotten the meaning of the word "state".

For the most part, the US "states" stopped being states in the political sense when the Articles were replaced by the Constitution, and deliberately so.

When Tocqueville visted decades after the Constitution was adopted, he remarked on how the federal government was remote, and not very much of a concern in peoples lives. Nearly everything he had to say about how democracy mostly-successfully holds tyranny in check was about about state politics.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#117

Post by mtmail »

coliveira wrote: post #42

This also happens in the border of Germany and Switzerland. A few places are part of Germany but inside Swiss territory.

Büsingen is one. People pay with Swiss Franc, houses have two postcodes, the local soccer club plays in the Swiss league. "Vehicles with BÜS licence plates are treated as Swiss vehicles for customs purposes." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%BCsingen_am_Hochrhein#Pec...

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#118

Post by trhway »

HumanDrivenDev wrote: post #93
jstanley wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is no more "sensible" for a state to be exercising control of its border than it is for a town to be exercising control over its border. We're all free people in the world, and we should be able to move around it freely. There should be no borders at all.

Are you not then essentially arguing that states have no sovereignty? If so, how far do you take it - do individuals? Can any migrant - legal or not - rock up to your house and start camping on your lawn?

What do have against somebody camping on your lawn?

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#119

Post by eesmith »

HumanDrivenDev wrote: post #93
jstanley wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is no more "sensible" for a state to be exercising control of its border than it is for a town to be exercising control over its border. We're all free people in the world, and we should be able to move around it freely. There should be no borders at all.

Are you not then essentially arguing that states have no sovereignty? If so, how far do you take it - do individuals? Can any migrant - legal or not - rock up to your house and start camping on your lawn?

What definition of sovereignty are you using which says that exercising border control is essential for sovereignty?

Under the Svalbard Treaty of 1920, Svalbard is under Norwegian sovereignty. It is also an entirely visa-free zone. Anyone can go there, including same-day visa-free transit at Oslo Airport en route there. If someone lives there for 7 years they can then get Norwegian citizenship.

People can be deported from Svalbard if they are unable to support themselves or commit a crime, which I think answers your migrant topic.

FWIW, the Sovereign Military Order of Malta has no territory, and hence no borders, but has widely recognized sovereignty.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#120

Post by lucideer »

Symbiote wrote: post #82
lucideer wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's paranoia. In order to argue that it's sensible, you have to first demonstrate a disimprovement in affairs warranting a change in policy, and secondly show a causal link between "outsiders" that your border control is targeting and those disimprovements. Even if you could manage the former of those two (which I don't believe you could, though I might be mistaken), the latter is definitely not the case.

I don't have any numbers, but I twice saw refugees "caught" at Malmö Hyllie station; the first station in Sweden and the official customs point for people arriving by train from Denmark. I only go to Malmö every 2-3 months, so at least for a while it may have been reasonable, given the aim of discovering refugees before they settle illegally somewhere.

I've been to Sweden twice in my life, and I've hit these border checks three times (I believe they were the first country to bring this stuff in—about 5 other countries have done so since) and also seen the same happen on one occasion coming from Copenhagen (by bus); someone being "caught". Nothing about that indicates to me that this is warranted, effective, or not purely motivated by paranoia. Who were those that were "caught" in your encounters? Did you get their names?
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