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Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

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Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#91

Post by zhte415 »

crispinb wrote: post #50
sho wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the same boat and have the same thoughts. I'm essentially trapped on OSX, and have been for a decade - sure, with enough pain and effort I might be able to kinda-sorta get by on linux, but in practise the barrier is just too high. And windows has never really even been an option until fairly recently. I'd love to see real competition in the OS space for people who need both a decent app ecosystem and open sour…

> I'm essentially trapped on OSX, and have been for a decade Me too until this May, when it was past time for my aging MB Pro to retire. I really couldn't justify a new one given I don't even like them any more (the Touchbar was the coup de grace). Hence a Dell XPS 15, running Windows 10. I won't pretend the latter is anywhere near as good as OSX (less stable, less consistent UI, generally lower quality apps), but it…

>I'd prefer linux though for its window manager choices, single-rooted filesystem, lack of nags & faster file io (among other things).

Why not install Linux, and run Windows under a VM?

Or if locked to the Windows install, run Linux under a VM?

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#92

Post by crispinb »

askvictor wrote: post #80
crispinb wrote: post #10

I'd like to use linux, and install it from time to time, but am always eventually worn down by problems, some trivial & some less so, that could mostly be solved, but at the cost of research & fiddling time I'm not interested in spending. The issues largely fall into two categories - missing software, and missing or undercooked hardware support. If Microsoft did signal to the market an increased long-term support for…

Having had a decent go at all three major OSes (windows, osx and Linux) in the past few years, I've found all of them to have a whole bunch of annoyances that stop me being able to do what I want, how I want it.

Absolutely. I've been f/t on each for varying amounts of time over the years, and have found each wanting. There really is no good desktop OS in 2018. I have found OS X the best for my purposes, but it exclusively runs on hardware that doesn't interest me, and only gets worse over time.

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#93

Post by kerng »

oaiey wrote: post #90
halbritt wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The existence of MSSQL-Linux is proof that Microsoft can get this done. The story is pretty interesting: https://cloudblogs.microsoft.com/sqlserver/2016/12/16/sql-se...

Just that a database server is a very specific thing. Own memory handling, own file system handling, own scheduling, ... . The core of these systems give a shit about the operating system.

It's even more so true. The complexity of kernel calls is much higher when custom memory and scheduler involved I'd say. Getting Office running is probably rather simple in comparison.

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#94

Post by crispinb »

zhte415 wrote: post #91
crispinb wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm essentially trapped on OSX, and have been for a decade Me too until this May, when it was past time for my aging MB Pro to retire. I really couldn't justify a new one given I don't even like them any more (the Touchbar was the coup de grace). Hence a Dell XPS 15, running Windows 10. I won't pretend the latter is anywhere near as good as OSX (less stable, less consistent UI, generally lower quality apps), but it…

>I'd prefer linux though for its window manager choices, single-rooted filesystem, lack of nags & faster file io (among other things). Why not install Linux, and run Windows under a VM? Or if locked to the Windows install, run Linux under a VM?

I've never seriously considered working primarily in a VM. For performance reasons, I suppose, but given how far the VM scene has come, that may well be an out of date prejudice. Maybe Linux under Windows (it would have to be that way round) would work. Worth considering, yes.

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#95

Post by Santosh83 »

Endy wrote: post #32
simonblack wrote: post #3

I suggested on Mini-Microsoft about 10 years ago that Microsoft do an 'Apple'. Apple took a free OS from BSD and put their own GUI over the top of it. I suggested that MSFT do the same sort of thing, that being to put their Windows GUI on top of the Linux OS instead of using the Linux X11 GUIs. This had the advantage that the underlying OS base would no longer need maintaining by Microsoft, and all their coding effor…

That would have been the end of me using computers, right then and there. An operating system that updates or upgrades more than about once per decade is moving entirely too fast. 5 years about the fastest possible rate that even approaches being reasonable. The fact that Windows has always bent over backwards to provide backward compatibility would be totally invalidated by shifting toward Linux. I run a bunch of DO…

There are no current OSes which upgrade once per decade or 5 years, sadly. Sure Win 7 and 8.1 are there, but on their way out. Everything else is updated much more frequently. I suppose MacOS is the only remotely reasonable alternative once Win 7 and 8.1 are past EOL.

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#96

Post by sho »

curiousgal wrote: post #88
sho wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh. No offense but it's comments like this that remind me why no, I haven't tried desktop linux recently. No, I am not going to mess around trying KDE Plasma or SomethingElse Tumbleweed or OpenWuffe SnufflePuss XL or any other of the billion permutations of half-baked shit which might or might not work. I am mid-career, I have money, I have little time and even less interest in fucking around with any of that just…

> and it will probably take a big company to actually do it The lack of a company controlling Linux is exactly why it's Linux. I am surprised that someone who is mid-career, has money, and little time doesn't know that.

Of course I know that. I'm explaining why the lack of somebody capable taking responsibility for providing a "curated" linux with a world-class UI and backing it up with deep and broad app and services ecosystem means that it won't ever be acceptable to the vast majority of desktop users, including me.

Canonical has totally failed to deliver this. Maybe someone else could, maybe not. We're just speculating here.

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#97

Post by kgc »

They could. However, if they did, they would need to open source everything they ship with it, if I remember the GPL correctly.

But also, I think it would be a daring and interesting business move. I'd probably start using Windows more if they did, and usage is the ultimate prize these days.

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#98

Post by emilsedgh »

sho wrote: post #76
didibus wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give openSuse Tumbleweed a try, with KDE Plasma. I've been running it on a 10 year old XPS 13, smooth as butter. Or KDE Neon if you'd rather have an Ubuntu core. I heard good things about it but didn't try.

Sigh. No offense but it's comments like this that remind me why no, I haven't tried desktop linux recently. No, I am not going to mess around trying KDE Plasma or SomethingElse Tumbleweed or OpenWuffe SnufflePuss XL or any other of the billion permutations of half-baked shit which might or might not work. I am mid-career, I have money, I have little time and even less interest in fucking around with any of that just…

I cannot stand windows for 5 minutes. to me it's just a terrible unresponsive, incoherent and unusable mess. Linux Desktop is a jewel in comparison.

I'm kind of starting to realize that small nuances in Linux are not forgiven, but they are easily overlooked in Windows.

People are just used to Windows and it's problem's are overlooked.

Anyways, Desktop Linux has always been a mostly volunteered project. There are billion dollar industries around server but most of the drive on desktop is just pure volunteered.

Considering that fact, I think it's doing amazing.

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#99

Post by zzo38computer »

emilsedgh wrote: post #98
sho wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh. No offense but it's comments like this that remind me why no, I haven't tried desktop linux recently. No, I am not going to mess around trying KDE Plasma or SomethingElse Tumbleweed or OpenWuffe SnufflePuss XL or any other of the billion permutations of half-baked shit which might or might not work. I am mid-career, I have money, I have little time and even less interest in fucking around with any of that just…

I cannot stand windows for 5 minutes. to me it's just a terrible unresponsive, incoherent and unusable mess. Linux Desktop is a jewel in comparison. I'm kind of starting to realize that small nuances in Linux are not forgiven, but they are easily overlooked in Windows. People are just used to Windows and it's problem's are overlooked. Anyways, Desktop Linux has always been a mostly volunteered project. There are bill…

I agree, Linux desktop is much better than Windows. But I prefer Linux without a desktop environment (this is not the same as a window manager; I do use a window manager, but not a desktop environment).

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#100

Post by jchw »

I agree with the skepticism here regarding the ease of getting Windows software working on Linux. The Wine and CrossOver folks are doing the Lord's work but even they have their limits.

Linux software tends to not rely on much. Linux makes it really hard to rely on much. The internals change often and the kernel is not nice to people who try to rely on implementation details, of what you can from usermode. You can hardly rely on libc when you are on Linux, and many try not to, to be more portable.

Windows software on the other hand is wild. Just look at the myriad of techniques used by anti-debugging and anti-reverse-engineering tools. A Linux binary wouldn't dream of reimplementing the runtime linker itself, but that's exactly what many packers do on Windows, to obscure the import address table and make patching/debugging harder. Did you know you can write into another processes address space with WriteProcessMemory? Why do we even have that lever!?

That's only considering usermode. But apps are just as eager to rely on kernel mode implementation details too, in the past it was even common to patch the SSDT to modify syscall behavior. Anti-cheat in video games can still do evil things even on Windows 10; nProtect GameGuard's kernel module seems to hide its usermode processes somehow. I'm pretty sure Linux kernel modules can't easily do that.

I'd love better Windows compatibility on Linux. Heck, I'm excited by what Valve is doing with Proton too. But in the end, I think much of the Windows software library is just too deeply ingrained in the Windows legacy.

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