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Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

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Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#41

Post by jws »

salimmadjd wrote: post #35

Hyperloop only works most comfortably in very flat routes. It's something I never realized until I visited Hyperloop's offices in LA when they first started. I got to make some early promo photos for them [0] and signed a 10-year NDA in the process. However, what I learned (which is public knowledge) that at high speeds even smallest elevation drops would make the passengers feel the free-fall sensation of being on a…

Regular US railroads generally are 1:100 slopes (0.6°) or less. Grades steeper than 2.2:100 (1.2°) are rare. Clearly there is a way to efficiently connect population centers which is not steep.

I think the issue is vertical curvature rather than slope. Traversing a slope at speed is just going to get you a constant vertical component which you will not feel, and not terribly fast, ␄

¹ The internet is not being forthcoming about real world elevator accelerations. It is too polluted by imaginary physics problems. So I unilaterally decided 1/3g would be ok.

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#42

Post by Retric »

ucaetano wrote: post #28
ceejayoz wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've already got folks hopping from IC trains to regional ones in the major cities. I'm not clear on why you think a hyperloop between major cities (eventually replacing the current high-speed lines) couldn't possibly interlink with the regional/local transit options at major stations.

> I'm not clear on why you think a hyperloop between major cities (eventually replacing the current high-speed lines) Why would you replace perfectly good existing infrastructure that is used not just for high-speed rail in Switzerland with an entirely new, untested, incompatible system that will provide little incremental benefit while severely crippling the existing rail network? High-speed rail lines in Switzerlan…

Countries can take super long views of such projects. In 100+ years are people going to want super high speed rail?

If so, a little investment now can add up in the long term. This a long way from proven technology, but you make that jump in small investments not a complete replacement of a working system.

Even better, the first track is going to end up as a tourist destination.

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#44

Post by jfoutz »

jcranmer wrote: post #37
salimmadjd wrote: post #35

Hyperloop only works most comfortably in very flat routes. It's something I never realized until I visited Hyperloop's offices in LA when they first started. I got to make some early promo photos for them [0] and signed a 10-year NDA in the process. However, what I learned (which is public knowledge) that at high speeds even smallest elevation drops would make the passengers feel the free-fall sensation of being on a…

The thing about ultra-high-speed is this: your benefits (travel time) grow linearly with speed, but your problems (energy, capacity, curve radii, etc.) grow quadratically. Actually, it's worse than it sounds. Travel time has a big impact on demand--but only within a small-ish window, about 2-4 hours. Outside of that window, demand does not respond that much to changes in travel time. That means that higher speeds are…

There is an eaisier question. Is it better to have more ambulances or faster ambulances. Faster wins every time.

Analogy is a terrible argument. But I kinda think faster transportation beats more transportation every single time.

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#45

Post by m_mueller »

ucaetano wrote: post #29
m_mueller wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you describe can be said about the Shinkansen when it was introduced in the 60s - and look at it now.

Nope. There was no high-speed rail in Japan then. Japan wasn't in the 60's what Switzerland is today.

Don’t know what you mean, Switzerland has no high speed rail worth speaking of. TGV and ICE have to drive slowly due to curves. If you’ve ever driven trains in Switzerland and compare to Shinkansen, it’s not even close.

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#46

Post by m_mueller »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #38
jcranmer wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about ultra-high-speed is this: your benefits (travel time) grow linearly with speed, but your problems (energy, capacity, curve radii, etc.) grow quadratically. Actually, it's worse than it sounds. Travel time has a big impact on demand--but only within a small-ish window, about 2-4 hours. Outside of that window, demand does not respond that much to changes in travel time. That means that higher speeds are…

Even the HSR that operates in Switzerland, the TGV, doesn't get up to speed until it is well within France. Switzerland tracks aren't straight enough for HSR, and it would cost a lot to straighten them out. There also isn't a lot of demand for Geneva to Zurich in an hour.

I think the demand would come after it gets built. Even bigger would be demand for Bern/Zurich and Basel/Zurich in 30min, bringing these cities comfortably into commute distance. People do that today but only if they really must.

There is an aspect of Swiss economy that makes HSR attractive: high degree of decentralization.

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#47

Post by seanmcdirmid »

m_mueller wrote: post #46
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the HSR that operates in Switzerland, the TGV, doesn't get up to speed until it is well within France. Switzerland tracks aren't straight enough for HSR, and it would cost a lot to straighten them out. There also isn't a lot of demand for Geneva to Zurich in an hour.

I think the demand would come after it gets built. Even bigger would be demand for Bern/Zurich and Basel/Zurich in 30min, bringing these cities comfortably into commute distance. People do that today but only if they really must. There is an aspect of Swiss economy that makes HSR attractive: high degree of decentralization.

Those cities already feel close enough together. More to the point, I don’t think Switzerland probably wants the kind of growth that HSR would enable and encourage.

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#48

Post by snovv_crash »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #47
m_mueller wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the demand would come after it gets built. Even bigger would be demand for Bern/Zurich and Basel/Zurich in 30min, bringing these cities comfortably into commute distance. People do that today but only if they really must. There is an aspect of Swiss economy that makes HSR attractive: high degree of decentralization.

Those cities already feel close enough together. More to the point, I don’t think Switzerland probably wants the kind of growth that HSR would enable and encourage.

No they really aren't close enough together. For example, I know someone who moved from Zurich to Olten so that their girlfriend's commute to Bern would be reasonable. Now you have 2 people with 50 minute commutes instead of 1 person with 1h45 and another person with 15min. If there was a 30min connection from Bern to Zurich it would be perfectly reasonable to live in one and commute to the other.

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#49

Post by snovv_crash »

salimmadjd wrote: post #35

Hyperloop only works most comfortably in very flat routes. It's something I never realized until I visited Hyperloop's offices in LA when they first started. I got to make some early promo photos for them [0] and signed a 10-year NDA in the process. However, what I learned (which is public knowledge) that at high speeds even smallest elevation drops would make the passengers feel the free-fall sensation of being on a…

That sensation is caused by vertical acceleration, ie. curvature, not by vertical speed. Controlling curvature is something that needs to be done anyway in the horizontal, I don't see why the vertical component would be harder to control for.

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#50

Post by seanmcdirmid »

snovv_crash wrote: post #48
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those cities already feel close enough together. More to the point, I don’t think Switzerland probably wants the kind of growth that HSR would enable and encourage.

No they really aren't close enough together. For example, I know someone who moved from Zurich to Olten so that their girlfriend's commute to Bern would be reasonable. Now you have 2 people with 50 minute commutes instead of 1 person with 1h45 and another person with 15min. If there was a 30min connection from Bern to Zurich it would be perfectly reasonable to live in one and commute to the other.

Again, does Switzerland really want to become one big mega city? It is up for the Swiss to decide, but a huge commute draw between Bern and Zurich (or even Bern and Lausanne) would lead to something more like Japan.
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