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Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

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Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#51

Post by lukeh »

geofft wrote: post #15

> In addition, for several years now, Microsoft's WSL developers have been working on mapping Linux API calls to Windows and vice-versa. A lot of the work needed for Windows apps to run without modification on Linux has already been done. This argument makes little sense: that "vice versa" is wholly unsubstantiated and without it the rest collapses. Making Linux binaries work on NT (which already has a subsystem conc…

Interix was a better POSIX subsystem; it took until WSL to actually be able to run Linux binaries on NT.

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#52

Post by AaronFriel »

h1d wrote: post #24
rbanffy wrote: post #2

They could even use WSL to put Linux on top of the NT kernel. It'd be called Microsoft GNU/Windows. Or they could ditch the GNU part and go for a non-GNU libc and userland like the article suggests. That wouldn't save nearly as much money as the article speculates because the Windows userland is humongous - NT is a small part of the whole, much like the Linux kernel is a vanishingly small part of the distributed effo…

Is WSL that complete? There could be tons of edge cases where stock Linux binaries could behave slightly differently and could be a support nightmare.

I regularly develop Haskell, Rust, Node, etc. on WSL. It's dramatically improved since the early days, and that was already pretty magical.

I find it funny you mention "stock Linux binaries", the distributions that are available on top of WSL are stock Linux distributions. Ubuntu, Debian, SUSE, etc. There aren't any non stock Linux binaries involved.

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#53

Post by bpye »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #20
innagadadavida wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While Linux is faster and more scalable, Using BSD like Apple has many advantrges - especially when there are thousands of closed-source windows drivers which will never be released as open source. The other big hurdle is the sad state of Linux graphical facilities in the kernel. For Apple, this was never a problem due to limited hardware choices.

Well if I were them I'd implement my own stable driver ABI so companies wouldn't be forced to open source them (like it really makes a difference anyway with all the firmware blobs) and you wouldn't have to recompile every single driver for every single kernel revision. I'd also move more stuff into user space like they did in Windows, which is why a video or sound driver crash usually just wigs out the screen for a…

There is a project called NDISWrapper which attempts to do that. It used to be used quite a bit for WiFi drivers before Linux had decent WiFi drivers for most chipsets.

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#54

Post by justinclift »

simonblack wrote: post #3

I suggested on Mini-Microsoft about 10 years ago that Microsoft do an 'Apple'. Apple took a free OS from BSD and put their own GUI over the top of it. I suggested that MSFT do the same sort of thing, that being to put their Windows GUI on top of the Linux OS instead of using the Linux X11 GUIs. This had the advantage that the underlying OS base would no longer need maintaining by Microsoft, and all their coding effor…

> ... put their Windows GUI on top of the Linux OS instead of using the Linux X11 GUIs.

So, put the Win10 GUI on a Linux desktop?

As the saying goes "Now you have two problems". :)

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#55

Post by gingerbread-man »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #38
gingerbread-man wrote: post #34

Here's a dopey idea: What if Microsoft open-sourced the Windows NT kernel? (While retaining some proprietary drivers, etc..) If handled well, a community would blossom around "NT," with multiple "unofficial" distros (maybe one with full POSIX compatibility), and lots and lots of happy developers. If things went really well, they might even achieve the resources necessary to create Windows Phone 2.0. Microsoft could s…

This is commonly suggested and I don't even think from a business revenue standpoint it would be a big deal for them. The biggest issue is that it is a 20 year code base with 20 year old bugs and open sourcing the whole thing would immediately generate open season on Windows boxes from a security standpoint. You'll see Microsoft open source new things as they go, and probably smaller components as they rework them, b…

A very good point. But if that were the only impediment, I suspect Microsoft could come up with a rollout plan to mitigate (though not completely eliminate) this problem. Releasing a "preview" of the kernel source to trusted security researchers and academics might be a start.

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#56

Post by halbritt »

sho wrote: post #37
crispinb wrote: post #10

I'd like to use linux, and install it from time to time, but am always eventually worn down by problems, some trivial & some less so, that could mostly be solved, but at the cost of research & fiddling time I'm not interested in spending. The issues largely fall into two categories - missing software, and missing or undercooked hardware support. If Microsoft did signal to the market an increased long-term support for…

I'm in the same boat and have the same thoughts. I'm essentially trapped on OSX, and have been for a decade - sure, with enough pain and effort I might be able to kinda-sorta get by on linux, but in practise the barrier is just too high. And windows has never really even been an option until fairly recently. I'd love to see real competition in the OS space for people who need both a decent app ecosystem and open sour…

Have you guys tried Linux on the desktop recently?

There's a host of folks in my org running Ubuntu on Dell XPS laptops. Issues do arise, but they're pretty rare. I made the switch from Mac almost two years ago and it's been great.

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#57

Post by justinclift »

Endy wrote: post #32
simonblack wrote: post #3

I suggested on Mini-Microsoft about 10 years ago that Microsoft do an 'Apple'. Apple took a free OS from BSD and put their own GUI over the top of it. I suggested that MSFT do the same sort of thing, that being to put their Windows GUI on top of the Linux OS instead of using the Linux X11 GUIs. This had the advantage that the underlying OS base would no longer need maintaining by Microsoft, and all their coding effor…

That would have been the end of me using computers, right then and there. An operating system that updates or upgrades more than about once per decade is moving entirely too fast. 5 years about the fastest possible rate that even approaches being reasonable. The fact that Windows has always bent over backwards to provide backward compatibility would be totally invalidated by shifting toward Linux. I run a bunch of DO…

> ... the practices of Linux/Unix devs who have little or no respect for the past

Maybe some Linux devs, but many Unix devs have been around a long time and are pretty insistent on backwards compatibility too. ;)

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#59

Post by crispinb »

halbritt wrote: post #56
sho wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the same boat and have the same thoughts. I'm essentially trapped on OSX, and have been for a decade - sure, with enough pain and effort I might be able to kinda-sorta get by on linux, but in practise the barrier is just too high. And windows has never really even been an option until fairly recently. I'd love to see real competition in the OS space for people who need both a decent app ecosystem and open sour…

Have you guys tried Linux on the desktop recently? There's a host of folks in my org running Ubuntu on Dell XPS laptops. Issues do arise, but they're pretty rare. I made the switch from Mac almost two years ago and it's been great.

Yep, on the XPS this year (the last time a new Ubuntu install a couple of weeks ago). Many problems. Some fixable, but a poorer use of my time than running or sailing or any number of three-dimensional activities I choose over screen flatland when not working.

Re: Could Microsoft release a desktop Linux?

#60

Post by sterlind »

gingerbread-man wrote: post #34

Here's a dopey idea: What if Microsoft open-sourced the Windows NT kernel? (While retaining some proprietary drivers, etc..) If handled well, a community would blossom around "NT," with multiple "unofficial" distros (maybe one with full POSIX compatibility), and lots and lots of happy developers. If things went really well, they might even achieve the resources necessary to create Windows Phone 2.0. Microsoft could s…

Amazon and Google are likely to make cloud-ready NT distros, cutting off Microsoft's last cash lifeline on rival clouds. So it would have significant costs.

On the other hand, Flash once had API dominance and lost it as they (fortunately!) abdicated to HTML5. MS is now extremely aware that Win32 isn't the future - they even cut the OS into pieces and reorg'd NT under us (Azure.)

.NET Core is the way forward for the company. I could totally see us releasing "NT Core" without the Win32 userland, and WSL, Modern and .NET Core as the official personalities.

We could even release the shell that way. But it would pull a bunch of developers away from new scenarios to put onto an ever-shrinking desktop market.

Most likely we'll just see all new products become cross-platform and the execs will wait until a new "iPhone moment" comes along to get ahead with consumer OS.

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